I'm confused (is anybody surprised?). It's not about the money, they don't know how much money they derive as a spinoff of the Forum and 'we wish we could keep all of you.' So, then, what the hell is it all about? Saying, "We've talked about it for two years" is no explanation. I've talked about hemorrhoids for two years, but I don't want to get one.
DON: WHEN THE BOAR REACHES THE GOLDEN YEARS THE "GOLDEN JUCICES" LOOSE THE "GOLDEN" AND NOW THEY JUST HAVE "JUICES",ONLY. WHEN THAT HAPPENS THE "JUICES ONLY HOG" GETS SENT TO THE MARKET AND HE ROLLS HIS EYES UP, AND SQUELLLLLLLS FOR THE LAST TIME, WHERE HE THEN BECOMES GROUND CHOPS AND THOSE LITTLE BITTY WEANERS.
I may have reached that step, also, just don't want to admit it! I'm ready to go, but I certainly hope to continue having a great life on the forum, while I'm waiting!
James I'm just trying to take a little heat off of you on this thread. I could not do without the Mississippi Law Letter or this forum. $277.00 divided by millions of piglets brings the cost of this library down to pennies. Compared to the litigation cost, this forum can not be measured for the ounce of prevention and rethinking caused by the challenging words of my peers that goes into the issues/threads. Just last week, the thread on I-9 caused me to go back and review our procedures and how we operate. Nothing changed but my confidence; that I was not involation of anyone's right's under the law gave me greater security.
For MLS to say it is not about the money reminds me of the Wizard of Oz telling Dorothy and her band of misfits to ignore the man behind the curtain.
Of course it is about the money. And blaming the accountants for not being able to peel the onion to determine some of the relationships between the cost drivers and revenue sources just doesn't wash. You have to invest in the tools and infrastructure to derive this information, it cannot be created out of thin air - unless you work for Enron and that is another story.
If it's not about the money then why do what you're doing? I wouldn't mind a nominal fee to use the Forum but as others, I am newslettered out and just can't ask for any more money from the boss. Too bad, because I think you are losing a lot of people and it is also leaving a very bad taste in my mouth about MLS.
Its to bad. With Balloonman, Hatchetman and so many others "OUT", this forum will be so much less that it currently is. I have $197 budgeted (which is what I paid last year)for the subscription. Now I understand it will cost me an additional $80 ($277 annually). With everyone bailing out, I really don't know if I want to fight tha battle to get the additional $80 allocated for a lesser service - esspecially with the budgetary constraints WE are now facing.
All of you guys are not thinking outside of the box; find a way to get the money and stay on-line. There are HR issues out there that we can deal with together.
While we make that plea to our peers, James you need to press your counterparts to rethink the loss of this forum and its membership! I would certainly hate to think of spending my extra time, what little there is to counter punch with "Dandy Don" knowing full well he is very strong in detailing and breaking down the posted words to make sense.
I have purposely cancelled several other publications that I read and post in three ring binders to assist me in staying current on the latest legal HR issues.
From a business perspective, I guess you attorneys that run this forum consider your logged time as more valuable than other legal activities. True, but consider the number of times that we professional HRs encourage young HRs to stay in contact with their retained attorney or check with legal before you proceed on my words. We really don't necessarily need your time, just your monitoring and keeping this line of communications open and available when we really need your input to clear something up! Some how make room and interplay with the small business that has a limited budget!
I'm sad to say I will be out also. I have not posted very much but have learned so much about HR because of the immense knowledge of the other posters.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-25-04 AT 10:52AM (CST)[/font][br][br]Well, the "two guys" on the west coast will be gone. I'm taking advantage of a subscriber where I am doing an "interim HR stint" which will end soon. As a person who has plans for life after HR, I don't expect that I will spring for a subscription.
Gillian3: We're meeting at the tool shed at 2 p.m. We'll get axe handles and beanpoles and splitting malls and head to Brentwood. You bring rags and lamp oil!
To be quite honest, the only reason I subscribe is because of the Forum. If they eventually eliminate the Forum, I won't continue to subscribe. I learn much more through the Forum interraction than I do reading the articles, for the most part. In fairness to MLS, there is the occational 'Newsflash' type of article that I'm glad I get to see, that do keep me updated. But, I don't benefit from old stuff or surveys or opinion pieces. I'm still waiting to see James reply to the posts asking for the underlying reason for the decision. Not the fluff reason, the real reason.
The more I read about who will be leaving, the sadder I get. In James defense, are we just shooting the messenger here? He did say Forum staff had advocated for grandfathering and it was not approved. I am wondering, James, if the higher ups or whoever did not approve grandfathering as a compromise, will have access to all these responses and thoughts? If not, is there somewhere else we can address our concerns?
I don't think James needs anyone's defense. x:-)He speaks to us on behalf of M. Lee Smith, as part of his job there. No one is shooting the messenger. Several, including myself, have, however, told him that we expect/desire an answer. I see nothing wrong with that since he is in the position of communicating such issues to Forum participants.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-25-04 AT 02:25PM (CST)[/font][br][br]I don't disagree Don and I wasn't trying to be critical of folks who are questioning. I am trying to think of ANY friggin way we can salvage this. After reading Tony's response below, I feel it is obvious there is not.
Edit: James answered one of my questions about grandfathering. I don't think I have yet to see an answer re: what about Forum membership with the purchase of any product and someone else's question about a fee for Forum membership only?
Tony's answer is a non-answer. It was like asking why is there a stop sign at this intersection instead of a yield sign and in turn you get the history of asphalt.
sonny, you asked about Forum membership with the purchase of another product. There are several newsletters that people can subscribe to in order to keep access to the Forum. There are our state Employment Law Letters, Federal Employment Law Insider, HR Insight, benefits newsletters, or workers' comp newsletters: [url]http://www.HRhero.com/employersforum/newsletters.shtml[/url]
If someone else in their company subscribes to one of these, that'll work, too.
I wonder if the real reason has to do with some of the arguements we get into. Perhaps a few of the combatants have cancelled subscriptions while referencing some of the more vitriolic threads. The resulting management discomfort in the halls around MLS may have made life very uncomfortable for some. Destroying these little mosquitos with an atom bomb sure eliminated the problem ... but the collateral damage that came with it is a high price to pay.
Remember the story about the doctor that cured the disease but killed the patient?
For those Forumites who know, not to mention the absense of my future dissertation about my experiences as an HR person who is a whistleblower. This adventure is now more than one year old and still plodding along.
I've actually been a subscriber to the Washington State Law Letter for about 6 years or so. I didn't even know about the forum until my renewal package came around last year and I actually read the contents x:-8 . I can't imagine not having the subscription and I've learned a lot on the forum. I hope, really hope, that Balloonman, Yahoo, Hatchetman, FHR and Gillian will be able to find a way to stay with the forum - especially Balloonman. I don't want to embarrass him, and he doesn't know this, but he's the reason why I started looking at this forum as a valuable source of HR information. My first month or so on the forum, I spent all my time in the Worker Comp. section. Balloonman's responses to questions were spot on. A light bulb went off in my head, as this place could be another source of good, practical HR information to add to my bag of tricks.
I hope all of you will be able to find a way to subscribe. You will be greatly missed if you don't.
Thank you, MWild. I certainly hope I can stick around as well. I don't start my new job until Monday, so I'm not sure what I'll have to spend on subscriptions.
Although I will be doing everything in my power to get another subscription, I would like to hear why the connection between the Forum & subscriptions has been made when there's no monetary reason????
As much as I've used the Forum and loved it, I'm also sad to say (and a little embarrassed) that I'm not a subscriber. I suddenly feel bad that I stuck my nose in. Sorry to have eavesdropped in an arena where I didn't belong.
Even though I'm leaving my current job, I'll be dealing with similar HR duties elsewhere (although self-employed and not floating in "$$cha-ching$$" quite yet to afford a subscription) and would have loved to continue checking in. I'll be very curious to find out what other types of HR resources are available in the real world, although the "cyber-friends" that I feel I've made here won't be available there.
I'll continue participating as much as I can until I sign in someday and I see a sad face telling me, "Get Lost".
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-25-04 AT 11:47AM (CST)[/font][br][br]James-it's beginning to sound as if MLS has cut off their nose to spite their face. Time to do some re-thinking of the issue. This forum exists because of the people who contribute to it. If you lose the people you have no forum. This is not a threat from me...this is an observation based on the other posts.
The forum will be diminished by the absence of those that have indicated they can no longer participate. I subscribed to a couple of the products offered by MLS long before I discovered the forum. Like others, once I became involved with the forum, I found my understanding and knowledge increased exponentially by being able to read and discuss practical applications of all of this great theory and printed words.
This learning is enhanced not only by those with great knowledge and experience, but also by those who are just learning and find themselves stumbling around in the dark. These people are making some of the same mistakes that I make. Reading their questions and seeing their footsteps wind their way through the maze of information, opinions and understanding helps me understand better where I am on a particular issue or topic.
A free forum encourages participation. More participation results in a better forum with a more diverse knowledge base. A better forum creates loyalty to MLS when other avenues that offer the same info exits. That can only be a good thing for MLS.
I don't have the energy to fight too hard. Sorry guys. Currently, I am trying to convince my fair city that they should be kind enough to let me build a single car garage on my own property.
Many of you make great points. Those of us who take turns moderating the Forum -- heck, even during the weeks when it isn't our turn to be the Forum police -- we watch and read and learn a lot about the challenges of HR. Thanks to the Forum, we have a greater appreciation and respect for the job you do. It can be interesting and amazing one day and disastrous and depressing the next, much like this Forum.
I'm not a techology whiz, but I've watched (off to the side) as James, Jim Robb, Brian, and Brad have wrestled with various Forum issues. In the beginning, it was building the site. Over the years, they've added improvements to manage the rapidly increasing volume. They've added conferences as needed and requested. Also frequently help folks to add, revise, and occasionally then delete their profiles. Occasionally settle disagreements when Forum participants get into conflicts, sometimes offline. Once got rid of the frizzy-haired lady at the top of a not-so-wonderful home page update. Kept a close watch on things when AluminumBoys and SteelBoys started stirring things up on the site. James and crew haven't always done everything right (see Introducing Frizzy-Haired Lady, above). But they've certainly tried.
In the beginning, we never imagined that one person wouldn't have time to read the new postings, much less react to all the various needs and requests that those new posts generate each day. The decision to let in only subscribers, as James points out, should allow us to better serve those of you who are subscribers. James, Brian, and the others will be able to jump on your issues more quickly. In the beginning, yes, the numbers may be a little smaller. But in the long run, as the numbers rise again, we'll go to the bean counters and say, We need and can justify more staff.
If that is seen as a money issue, so be it. Most of you are in HR and deal with these same types of issues every day. Justifying and paying for staff is not a novel concept.
We sincerely appreciate the contributions that all of you have made to this site. We hope as many of you as possible will be able to stay on. In that sense, it isn't a money issue for us. We're not trying to drain you dry. Simply want to position the site so that we can give you the best possible customer service in the years ahead. We were at the point where that was going to be difficult to continue under the current operating arrangement. Hope this helps. tk
Tony Kessler, director of editorial M. Lee Smith Publishers LLC (615) 661-0249 ext. 8068
We really haven't given a lot of discussion to the idea of offering the Forum as a separate service for a fee. O=* I'll talk it over with Brad Forrister (web guru and boss) when I can, but he conveniently skipped town for a week. Actually, if you're going to the SHRM convention, look in our booth and you might see him before I do.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-25-04 AT 02:34PM (CST)[/font][br][br]"The decision to let in only subscribers, as James points out, should allow us to better serve those of you who are subscribers. James, Brian, and the others will be able to jump on your issues more quickly."
Tony, thanks for that colorful historical tour. I cut and pasted the above from your remarks. No, that doesn't make sense at all. 'Jump on (our) issues more quickly'? What issues do you guys 'jump on'? If you're talking about the technical issues raised on 'How To Use The Forum', you can dump that part of the Forum. Nobody comes onto the Forum to ask James or Brian or 'the others' to solve HR issues, so I'm not sure which 'issues' they don't have time to 'jump on'. Maybe I'm just dense. So,in that regard, no, your answer does not help at all. Perhaps someone else there can make another run at the answer.
(edit) One question that I haven't seen addressed is will non-subscribers be able to view, just not post, or have restricted access altogether?
Comments
I may have reached that step, also, just don't want to admit it! I'm ready to go, but I certainly hope to continue having a great life on the forum, while I'm waiting!
James I'm just trying to take a little heat off of you on this thread. I could not do without the Mississippi Law Letter or this forum. $277.00 divided by millions of piglets brings the cost of this library down to pennies. Compared to the litigation cost, this forum can not be measured for the ounce of prevention and rethinking caused by the challenging words of my peers that goes into the issues/threads. Just last week, the thread on I-9 caused me to go back and review our procedures and how we operate. Nothing changed but my confidence; that I was not involation of anyone's right's under the law gave me greater security.
PORK
Of course it is about the money. And blaming the accountants for not being able to peel the onion to determine some of the relationships between the cost drivers and revenue sources just doesn't wash. You have to invest in the tools and infrastructure to derive this information, it cannot be created out of thin air - unless you work for Enron and that is another story.
Its to bad. With Balloonman, Hatchetman and so many others "OUT", this forum will be so much less that it currently is. I have $197 budgeted (which is what I paid last year)for the subscription. Now I understand it will cost me an additional $80 ($277 annually). With everyone bailing out, I really don't know if I want to fight tha battle to get the additional $80 allocated for a lesser service - esspecially with the budgetary constraints WE are now facing.
I never would have even heard of MLS if I would not have found the forum with google.
I personally think that this move will help sales of the newsletter in the short term, but hurt it in the long term.
Just my 2 cents worth,
Rob S.
While we make that plea to our peers, James you need to press your counterparts to rethink the loss of this forum and its membership! I would certainly hate to think of spending my extra time, what little there is to counter punch with "Dandy Don" knowing full well he is very strong in detailing and breaking down the posted words to make sense.
I have purposely cancelled several other publications that I read and post in three ring binders to assist me in staying current on the latest legal HR issues.
From a business perspective, I guess you attorneys that run this forum consider your logged time as more valuable than other legal activities. True, but consider the number of times that we professional HRs encourage young HRs to stay in contact with their retained attorney or check with legal before you proceed on my words. We really don't necessarily need your time, just your monitoring and keeping this line of communications open and available when we really need your input to clear something up! Some how make room and interplay with the small business that has a limited budget!
PORK
Edit: James answered one of my questions about grandfathering. I don't think I have yet to see an answer re: what about Forum membership with the purchase of any product and someone else's question about a fee for Forum membership only?
[url]http://www.HRhero.com/employersforum/newsletters.shtml[/url]
If someone else in their company subscribes to one of these, that'll work, too.
James Sokolowski
HRhero.com
Remember the story about the doctor that cured the disease but killed the patient?
I hope all of you will be able to find a way to subscribe. You will be greatly missed if you don't.
Although I will be doing everything in my power to get another subscription, I would like to hear why the connection between the Forum & subscriptions has been made when there's no monetary reason????
Even though I'm leaving my current job, I'll be dealing with similar HR duties elsewhere (although self-employed and not floating in "$$cha-ching$$" quite yet to afford a subscription) and would have loved to continue checking in. I'll be very curious to find out what other types of HR resources are available in the real world, although the "cyber-friends" that I feel I've made here won't be available there.
I'll continue participating as much as I can until I sign in someday and I see a sad face telling me, "Get Lost".
x:'(
This learning is enhanced not only by those with great knowledge and experience, but also by those who are just learning and find themselves stumbling around in the dark. These people are making some of the same mistakes that I make. Reading their questions and seeing their footsteps wind their way through the maze of information, opinions and understanding helps me understand better where I am on a particular issue or topic.
I don't have the energy to fight too hard. Sorry guys. Currently, I am trying to convince my fair city that they should be kind enough to let me build a single car garage on my own property.
I'm not a techology whiz, but I've watched (off to the side) as James, Jim Robb, Brian, and Brad have wrestled with various Forum issues. In the beginning, it was building the site. Over the years, they've added improvements to manage the rapidly increasing volume. They've added conferences as needed and requested. Also frequently help folks to add, revise, and occasionally then delete their profiles. Occasionally settle disagreements when Forum participants get into conflicts, sometimes offline. Once got rid of the frizzy-haired lady at the top of a not-so-wonderful home page update. Kept a close watch on things when AluminumBoys and SteelBoys started stirring things up on the site. James and crew haven't always done everything right (see Introducing Frizzy-Haired Lady, above). But they've certainly tried.
In the beginning, we never imagined that one person wouldn't have time to read the new postings, much less react to all the various needs and requests that those new posts generate each day. The decision to let in only subscribers, as James points out, should allow us to better serve those of you who are subscribers. James, Brian, and the others will be able to jump on your issues more quickly. In the beginning, yes, the numbers may be a little smaller. But in the long run, as the numbers rise again, we'll go to the bean counters and say, We need and can justify more staff.
If that is seen as a money issue, so be it. Most of you are in HR and deal with these same types of issues every day. Justifying and paying for staff is not a novel concept.
We sincerely appreciate the contributions that all of you have made to this site. We hope as many of you as possible will be able to stay on. In that sense, it isn't a money issue for us. We're not trying to drain you dry. Simply want to position the site so that we can give you the best possible customer service in the years ahead. We were at the point where that was going to be difficult to continue under the current operating arrangement. Hope this helps. tk
Tony Kessler, director of editorial
M. Lee Smith Publishers LLC
(615) 661-0249 ext. 8068
We really haven't given a lot of discussion to the idea of offering the Forum as a separate service for a fee. O=* I'll talk it over with Brad Forrister (web guru and boss) when I can, but he conveniently skipped town for a week. Actually, if you're going to the SHRM convention, look in our booth and you might see him before I do.
James Sokolowski
HRhero.com
Tony, thanks for that colorful historical tour. I cut and pasted the above from your remarks. No, that doesn't make sense at all. 'Jump on (our) issues more quickly'? What issues do you guys 'jump on'? If you're talking about the technical issues raised on 'How To Use The Forum', you can dump that part of the Forum. Nobody comes onto the Forum to ask James or Brian or 'the others' to solve HR issues, so I'm not sure which 'issues' they don't have time to 'jump on'. Maybe I'm just dense. So,in that regard, no, your answer does not help at all. Perhaps someone else there can make another run at the answer.
(edit) One question that I haven't seen addressed is will non-subscribers be able to view, just not post, or have restricted access altogether?