Having just trained Discrimination & Harassment last week I recall my comments to staff. We all have different levels of what offends us. Our work environment needs to be unoffensive to the lowest common denominator, so to speak. It's not appropriate for work.
Ironically, it is somewhat offensive to me but for a totally different reason. Being a Christian, I wouldn't want other people thinking that I as a Christian would speak or think that way. Just another thought.
I may be missing something, but I totally fail to see how "patriotism" is depicted by someone saying "Trust in God or bite my ass and leave." Is it patriotic because she's holding a flag? That card offends me, and not much in the way of free expression usually offends me. If that's what passes for patriotism these days, God (or the deity of your choice) help us.
Aside from the usual inclusion of verbatim sections of the Federal Register, Hatchetman has now spoken, in two separate postings, of a bikini and a thong bikini. I'm going to put my psychology hat on and analyze that. x:-)
What if the card had said.....'Or go to hell'. Since an athiest would hold no belief one way or another about hell or even acknowledge hell's existence, would that have offended him; and if it did, how could it have, since to him, it would hold no relevance? Gillian, please pass the peyote. You're Bogarting it again.
And if we are to become so sterile and straight-laced in the work environment as some suggest, let's surely remove all the Dilbert cartoons, the children's crayon drawings, the family pictures of swim suits on the beach, the ceramic jar inscribed "ashes of problem employees", the safety jokes about ourselves and certainly, in memoriam to Madeline Murray O'hare - the calendar inscription "THANK GOD IT'S FRIDAY, since, if nothing else, each of those is entirely INAPPROPRIATE. And I must remove this priceless photo of my daughter in her prom dress. To me the photo represents a large percentage of my happy world.....but I must be more sensitive - her bust line surely will offend someone. I have posted this before; but, for those of you who have joined us since then, this was for decades on the office wall of Doody Noble, Mississippi State baseball coach and athletic director in the 40s and 50s: "Gentlemen, we're talking about rat sh*t and there's elephant turds lying all around."
Come on. This isn't the only post that hasn't risen to any level of profundity and it hasn't stopped the discussing and debating for eons of threads. It doesn't always have to be an elephant turd.
I agree that the card wouldn't constitute discrimination, but it would be considered inapporpriate in my company. I don't see the analogy between family photos and a card that concludes with, "...just bite my ass". What one employee is allowed to display could be multiplied by the some 800 employees that work in our General Office and that definitely would not be acceptable for us. However, I think that each company must set it's own standards.
x:o Im shocked! How insensitive and tasteless of you, Balloonman! As a young woman on this forum I am grossly offended! x}> Now go to your cell and think about what you said!
I respectively disagree with Don D. and his analogies. I firmly believe that work should be about work and if something is posted in a cubicle or some other public work place and it stops people from working for a long period of time to vent, discuss, chat, analyze it's meaning or lack there of and/or possible legal ramifications for it's presence, yada, yada, yada - it should be removed. If it completely offends someone, I think it should be removed - again, going back to my thought that work should be about work. I do have personal items and cartoons posted in my work space - if anyone ever said they were offended by my stuff - I would take it down rather than waste one minute 'discussing' the issue. I can always post my cartoons and personal items at home. This doesn't make it a sterile work environment - it means I post it and if someone doesn't like it I take it down.
I'm afraid I would have to have the card removed on the "bite my ass" portion than the, "in God we trust." Same if it ended with, "go to hell." However if it said, "In God we trust" with some inocuous non-expletive (no matter how mild) statement to follow - I would leave it alone.
April pull your mind up out of the gutter! I was just going to see if Don should be worried that the picture would offend a typical male. x}> Of course one might debate how typical I am............ lol My $0.02 worth. DJ The Balloonman
>I respectively disagree with Don D. and his analogies. I firmly >believe that work should be about work and if something is posted in a >cubicle or some other public work place and it stops people from >working for a long period of time to vent, discuss, chat, analyze it's >meaning or lack there of and/or possible legal ramifications for it's >presence, yada, yada, yada - it should be removed. If it completely >offends someone, I think it should be removed - again, going back to >my thought that work should be about work. I do have personal items >and cartoons posted in my work space - if anyone ever said they were >offended by my stuff - I would take it down rather than waste one >minute 'discussing' the issue. I can always post my cartoons and >personal items at home. This doesn't make it a sterile work >environment - it means I post it and if someone doesn't like it I take >it down.
Doesn't that mean you "wasted one minute 'discussing' this" with us? Let's all go back to our cells and agree to disagree!
Hey Para, I was just reflecting on the old confederate flag issue as this made me think of it.. .some good points made all around but face it, this is one where we are going to have to agree to disagree. .
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-13-03 AT 04:17PM (CST)[/font][p]HS - You know what - your comment on my posting is way off base - I'm responding with my opinion on the post - that's it - not the discussion of the issue on the forum. And, for the record I did say that I 'respectfully disagreed' - I didn't personally attack Don D. - I stated a contrary opinion. Maybe contrary opinions or even strongly held opinions on the forum are only reserved for a selected few members & I'm obviously not one of the them. Thanks for the head's up. I'll now take my marbles and go play in another playground x:7
Respectfully, I don't think you've been attacked. One of the beauties of this forum is that we bounce things off each other. The spirited disagreements between those who contribute often lead us to rethink our positions with regard to an issue and to examine all sides (something we're supposed to be able to do as HR professionals). I equate this forum, especially the controversial threads, as sort of like a law school classroom where the professor asks question after question after question and with each question puts a new slant on a subject, getting a lively and incisive debate going among the students until they have explored all sides of the issue. Most of the time, the professor may just be playing devil's advocate and not share a particular view at all. Seldom is anything finally resolved, but it teaches the students to look at all sides of a problem and evaluate accordingly.
For many of us, this forum is the only opportunity we have to interact with other HR professionals on a regular basis (I know I don't get to SHRM lunches every month!) and in that respect it's a valuable tool for sharpening our teeth, so to speak. I am absolutely sure no one intended to attack you and no offense was intended. x:-)
Parabeagle, while my response is now diverting way off the topic, I feel compelled to respond to you. I, too, would certainly hope that there was no intent to attack, but the reality is that I have been stunned on occasion by others responses that do seem to literally blast the person. And I have seen those people never darken the forum again and would hope that is not the object of the forum. I know that every HR professional has his/her own style of agreeing to disagree, but if I spoke to my peers the way that some have on this forum, I would be out of a job. Please understand that I am referencing only the occasional outburst and although I consider myself definitely not in with the "in" group and there is an "in" group, I enjoy the reparte amongst those "regulars" and the intelligent and thoughtful responses, for the most part. I simply think everyone deserves to be spoken to with courtesy regardless whether I think they are idiots etc or not.
My dear friends - after all the conversation of the past 2 days, I feel I can call you that - I had no idea what excitement I would unleash with my little posting! Thank you ALL for the many (51 as of the moment)and varied opinions. I can now truly appreciate the value of this Forum. I'll report back if there is any further action of interest. For now, I'll sign off....let's get some WORK done!!! hatti
Maybe I'm just extraordinarily thick-skinned, but I reviewed the postings and didn't see anything that I would be offended by or that would make me feel attacked. And I hate to see us lose a thoughtful contributor because he/she feels unwelcome.
Like para I did not see HS's response to Wild as being off base. Honestly. One of the things I dislike about internet communication, is that you lose the expression, the tone of voice, the body language that so aids our communication face to face. As a result, I think we have to allow a little more lee way as to what might be being said. When I first read HS response "I think there's an echo in here,' my first reaction was to get defensive . .didn't realize I had just said the EXACT same thing. .anyway I do feel alot of us get defensive before it is neccessary or warrented. I think Para's summary was right on.
Elizabeth- I may really be in some warp, but I really haven't read any response that stunned me or that I felt was totally off base. .but when you or any of us take offense, I think we need to call the person on it. I don't think there is ONE person here who would disagree with you that we should all be courteous. .my point is, if I say something that you feel is discourteous how the heck am I going to know that if someone doesn't call me on it? If you (or anyone) don't want to do it publicly, send a private message. It works.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-14-03 AT 08:16AM (CST)[/font][p]EDIT: this is for mwild, lest someone else thinks I'm 'attacking' them.!
We are all entitled to our opinions, and my 'comment' was directed as a joke! I never said you "personally attacked Don D." I never said that "contrary opinions or even strongly held opinions on the forum are only reserved for a select few".
You are ostracizing yourself my friend. I never told you that you were one of 'them' or 'us' (whoever they are anyway!) or that your opinions don't matter. Lighten up! I was making a joke about the 'one minute' comment.
I am writing this out of concern about where this thread seems to be going. `It occurs to me that the "hottest" responses relate to issues of religion or things which have a fervor about them (flags). We obviously are a passionate group of people (which is interesting in as much as we're suppose to maintain a cool objectivity on the job). In any case, as usually happens with a topic such as this, we have gotten way off the mark. Maybe it's time to take a step back from this thread.
Just wanted to say that I haven't been on this forum since last year (and used it infrequently then). Today's my first day of getting back on and looking at some of the postings. I saw this one and just read the whole thread and, in my unbiased impartial opinion, I didn't see any attacking anyone else who had a dissenting opinion. In fact, this is such a fascinating thread because I found myself totally in agreement with not taking the card down until I read the next post and changed my opinion to "oh yes, I would have them take it down". It's a difficult issue, a fine line (as someone stated above), but such a learning experience to have this forum to be able to discuss. Just my humble opinion.
Forum Friends: Enough! Hatti, stay late tonight, take a black marker and cross out what you think is offensive. Everyone will think the atheist did it. The card is ruined. DNA tests are inconclusive. Card goes into the garbage. Case closed until next card gets put up. Be sure to let us know what that one says.
For those of you that are pouting becuase you are not the "in" crowd (what the h-ll is that??)let me remind you that this is not high school. ALL of us are HR professionals who, at times, cut through the yada, yada, yada quickly and sometimes we nick an ego. I am probably as guilty of that as anyone, mea cupa.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-14-03 AT 10:37AM (CST)[/font][p]I just want to say - that unlike some of the respondants since my last post - I did find the comment from HS offensive. Mainly because I viewed it as not furthering the discussion of the issue, but instead asking me if I've wasted one minute by discussing it with members of the forum. I don't need to lighten up as some suggest, but I do agree that in this format it is hard to tell tone of voice, etc. To Elizabeth, San Francisco, I think your comments are very well said and I agree with you completely. That being said, I've got that other playground to go and play on. Good luck to all of you x:-)
Comments
Ironically, it is somewhat offensive to me but for a totally different reason. Being a Christian, I wouldn't want other people thinking that I as a Christian would speak or think that way. Just another thought.
What if the card had said.....'Or go to hell'. Since an athiest would hold no belief one way or another about hell or even acknowledge hell's existence, would that have offended him; and if it did, how could it have, since to him, it would hold no relevance? Gillian, please pass the peyote. You're Bogarting it again.
And if we are to become so sterile and straight-laced in the work environment as some suggest, let's surely remove all the Dilbert cartoons, the children's crayon drawings, the family pictures of swim suits on the beach, the ceramic jar inscribed "ashes of problem employees", the safety jokes about ourselves and certainly, in memoriam to Madeline Murray O'hare - the calendar inscription "THANK GOD IT'S FRIDAY, since, if nothing else, each of those is entirely INAPPROPRIATE. And I must remove this priceless photo of my daughter in her prom dress. To me the photo represents a large percentage of my happy world.....but I must be more sensitive - her bust line surely will offend someone. I have posted this before; but, for those of you who have joined us since then, this was for decades on the office wall of Doody Noble, Mississippi State baseball coach and athletic director in the 40s and 50s: "Gentlemen, we're talking about rat sh*t and there's elephant turds lying all around."
Well said! xclap
Bravo
Come on. This isn't the only post that hasn't risen to any level of profundity and it hasn't stopped the discussing and debating for eons of threads. It doesn't always have to be an elephant turd.
I agree that the card wouldn't constitute discrimination, but it would be considered inapporpriate in my company. I don't see the analogy between family photos and a card that concludes with, "...just bite my ass". What one employee is allowed to display could be multiplied by the some 800 employees that work in our General Office and that definitely would not be acceptable for us. However, I think that each company must set it's own standards.
Elizabeth
Can you send me a your daughter's prom picture?
DJ The Balloonman
x}> Now go to your cell and think about what you said!
Of course one might debate how typical I am............ lol
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman
>believe that work should be about work and if something is posted in a
>cubicle or some other public work place and it stops people from
>working for a long period of time to vent, discuss, chat, analyze it's
>meaning or lack there of and/or possible legal ramifications for it's
>presence, yada, yada, yada - it should be removed. If it completely
>offends someone, I think it should be removed - again, going back to
>my thought that work should be about work. I do have personal items
>and cartoons posted in my work space - if anyone ever said they were
>offended by my stuff - I would take it down rather than waste one
>minute 'discussing' the issue. I can always post my cartoons and
>personal items at home. This doesn't make it a sterile work
>environment - it means I post it and if someone doesn't like it I take
>it down.
Doesn't that mean you "wasted one minute 'discussing' this" with us? Let's all go back to our cells and agree to disagree!
For many of us, this forum is the only opportunity we have to interact with other HR professionals on a regular basis (I know I don't get to SHRM lunches every month!) and in that respect it's a valuable tool for sharpening our teeth, so to speak. I am absolutely sure no one intended to attack you and no offense was intended. x:-)
Parabeagle, while my response is now diverting way off the topic, I feel compelled to respond to you. I, too, would certainly hope that there was no intent to attack, but the reality is that I have been stunned on occasion by others responses that do seem to literally blast the person. And I have seen those people never darken the forum again and would hope that is not the object of the forum. I know that every HR professional has his/her own style of agreeing to disagree, but if I spoke to my peers the way that some have on this forum, I would be out of a job. Please understand that I am referencing only the occasional outburst and although I consider myself definitely not in with the "in" group and there is an "in" group, I enjoy the reparte amongst those "regulars" and the intelligent and thoughtful responses, for the most part. I simply think everyone deserves to be spoken to with courtesy regardless whether I think they are idiots etc or not.
Elizabeth
My dear friends - after all the conversation of the past 2 days, I feel I can call you that - I had no idea what excitement I would unleash with my little posting! Thank you ALL for the many (51 as of the moment)and varied opinions. I can now truly appreciate the value of this Forum. I'll report back if there is any further action of interest. For now, I'll sign off....let's get some WORK done!!! hatti
Elizabeth- I may really be in some warp, but I really haven't read any response that stunned me or that I felt was totally off base. .but when you or any of us take offense, I think we need to call the person on it. I don't think there is ONE person here who would disagree with you that we should all be courteous. .my point is, if I say something that you feel is discourteous how the heck am I going to know that if someone doesn't call me on it? If you (or anyone) don't want to do it publicly, send a private message. It works.
We are all entitled to our opinions, and my 'comment' was directed as a joke! I never said you "personally attacked Don D." I never said that "contrary opinions or even strongly held opinions on the forum are only reserved for a select few".
You are ostracizing yourself my friend. I never told you that you were one of 'them' or 'us' (whoever they are anyway!) or that your opinions don't matter. Lighten up! I was making a joke about the 'one minute' comment.
Just my humble opinion.
For those of you that are pouting becuase you are not the "in" crowd (what the h-ll is that??)let me remind you that this is not high school. ALL of us are HR professionals who, at times, cut through the yada, yada, yada quickly and sometimes we nick an ego. I am probably as guilty of that as anyone, mea cupa.