Athiest employee cries ' discrimination '!

One of our employees is very outspokenly an athiest, and company policy protects his right to that belief as it protects all others to hold their own beliefs. Recently this employee, who normally works in the Yard area, had an occasion to go to the administrative office area to get paperwork. While there he saw a small card posted inside the cubicle of a person who works in the admin. area. The card is actually a design published by Hallmark, with the character "Maxine", holding an American flag - the caption is "It's IN GOD WE TRUST or just bite my ass and leave!"...meant to be a patriotic statement. The athiest gentleman took exception to the word 'GOD' being used and asked HR to 'investigate'. Together with our company president, I reviewed the cartoon (no one else was in the area at the time) and we agreed that, while not in the finest taste, the cartoon was meant as a 'passionately patriotic' statement and would not be offensive to a 'reasonable person'. I stated this in my response to the complaining party and said that the president would not make an issue of this with the person who has the cartoon in her cubicle. This morning the Yard Foreman tells me that the complainant is calling state offices to make a formal complain against our company. This a long 'post', but will really appreciate any comments, similar experiences, etc. Hatti
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Comments

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  • I don't have a similar experience but agree with the company's decision to make no issue of it. The athiest is free to express his belief and so is the person in the cubicle. Now if her sign said, "Die athiest, die", that might be different but she is expressing personal sentiment and a reasonable person would not find it offensive, albeit it perhaps off-color to some viewers. The athiest, if that's what he is, is farting in a whirlwind, which, in my humble opinion, translates to 'wasting his time' and 'getting nowhere'. Religious symbols such as stone copies of the ten commandments and the visible invocation of God in government structures have been popular challenges lately and some have been removed. But those are government structures where the court has concluded that government is adopting a religious position and is advocating a certain religion and forcefeeding it to the public. God is fairly generic as far as I can tell, among religions and I don't think this man has a winable position. But, I have no experience in this area.
  • Will he be filing a complaint against the Treasury Dept as well? Does he not use money? Really these people need to get a life. I think you handled it just fine, I would not make a major issue out of this. Please let us know how it turns out.

    Good luck
  • Michelle M. O'Neil

    Thanks to all of you for responding...some very good points. I'm hoping this will just 'go away'....if it doesn't, I'll let y'all know what happened. hatti
  • I agree with (what seems to be) the majority of posts on this Q: that the card/message does not constitute discrimination. (I would disagree w/ 1 post which cautioned that "doing nothing" was risky: the company did take action: they investigated the situation, which was the appropriate response. That the investigation reached the conclusion that the card was not offensive the avg "reasonable person" is, I think, correct... even though the language is a little spicy.)

    A couple of additional points though: 1-- having reached this decision re: the HR employee's card, you must now be prepared to allow the atheist employee, if he wishes, to put up something saying those who believe in (a) God "bite his ass", or similar messages that don't verge into the overtly profane/obscene. Otherwise, you're treating the atheist differently.... and that IS an open invite to lawsuit.

    2-- As long as the HR employee's card is displayed within their cubix (and not, say, on the outside panel, or prominently at the entrance, so that it might be construed as telling those who disagree to go away) I don't think it's a serious concern. But, as one who lives daily w/ the fact that we in HR are here for all the employees (and hence, sigh, must in most cases hold ourselves to a higher standard) the company might want to give some thought as to what messages individual HR staffers are putting out there to employees. Hope this is helpful.

  • It appears your atheist has far too much time on his hands, if you ask me. It seems to me that you handled it very appropriately and I like the use of the reasonable person standard. However, despite all the supportive posts I'm sure you will receive it doesn't mean he won't be able to find some hungry plaintiff lawyer to make your life miserable for a few months. Good luck.
  • I think the objectionalbe part is believe in God..."or bite my ass and leave."

    Would you think different if the athiest employee had a little cartoon or saying on his desk indicating that those who believe in a God bite his ass and leave.

    While I don't think that this one incident constitute some form of "religious harassment" (of those who don't believe in a God), it is akin to the picture of an employee's female friend in a bikini that is on his desk at work. What would you do in that circumstance?


  • I would look at the picture of the lady in the bikini while wondering how it fits into this conversation. And I would ask the athiest if his non-belief in an established religion, is, itself, a religion. As far as I know, it is a doctrine proclaiming that there is no diety, or at minimum, dissavowing such. An admonition to bite one's ass, although perhaps on the plebian edge of polite conversation, is not at all discriminatory as defined by the various federal discrimination acts. I suppose "All Catholics can bite my ass" could be arguably a discriminatory comment, although more laughable than recoverable. In my opinion, the malcontent would have to show that the company supports the establishment of one religion over another or openly shuns those of one or more religions. I notice that he 'usually works in the yard area' and has found his way into 'the administrative offices'. Remind him to stay in the yard area.
  • Thanks again for your response, Don.....I haven't 'posted' very often, but always enjoy the responses you give to people...keen insight with a touch of humor to help deal with some of this crazy stuff...hatti
  • I am generally very liberal when it comes to these issues and think religion needs to be kept out of the work place if someone is trying to impose their views on other or trying to include it in company policy. However in this case it does not sound like anyone was trying to impose their views on others. People should be able to have some personal items at their desks as long as they are not explicit. I believe you did the right thing.

    If this ee didn't get a promotion or a raise and the person making that decision was the employee with the card then he might have a case but from what I have read that has not occurred. Good Luck!
  • I'm going to stick my neck out and take the other side. The clencher for me is the "bite my ass and leave" statement. I agree with hatchetman that this one incident does not likely constitute harassment, but not doing anything about a complaint may send you down that road. To paraphrase the card, it says, if you don't believe in God, don't be employed here and by the way bite my ass. By keeping it up the company can be construed to stand by that statement. I think it sets a bad precedent. If the card said "I love God." I wouldn't have a problem. Title VII protect religious harassment on the same level as racial harassment, correct? What if the card said, "In WHITE we trust- or just bite my ass and leave"? There are other ways to show your patriotism than with a card like that.

    OK, my hard hat is on and I'm waiting.
  • This is where the job becomes difficult!! We look at these situations from all possible vantage points to figure out who might be offended and why.

    I'm not entirely sure why he was offended by the use of the word "god"-most atheists i know don't object to the word, but rather being forced to proclaim belief in something in order to engage in daily life. For example, a morning prayer led by a specific religious leader, or being judged in a court of law not by our administrative laws but rather by a judge's religious conviction.

    Perhaps a larger issue is lurking below the surface?
  • I have to agree with you, SMace. Trust me, I've dealt with these situations before and have asked the question many times "do these people have NOTHING better to do with their time???". But the fact remains, the slogan is essentially saying "believe in God or leave" not to mention "bite my ass while doing it", which, and I'm going out on an limb here, could possibly be construed as creating a hostile work environment.
  • I'd come down on the side of the apparent majority on this one. It's not any type of harassment or hostile work environment, or anything else illegal. The card has to be taken in context: it is in the cubicle of an employee, not posted in the employment office next to the stack of applications, or on the CEO's door.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-12-03 AT 04:38PM (CST)[/font][p]Don, I remind you of EEOC regulations on religious discrimination, 29CFR1605.1:

    "In most cases whether or not a practice or belief is religious is
    not at issue. However, in those cases in which the issue does exist, the
    Commission will define religious practices to include moral or ethical
    beliefs as to what is right and wrong which are sincerely held with the
    strength of traditional religious views. This standard was developed in
    United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965) and Welsh v. United States,
    398 U.S. 333 (1970). The Commission has consistently applied this
    standard in its decisions...The fact that no religious group espouses
    such beliefs or the fact that the religious group to which the
    individual professes to belong may not accept such belief will not
    determine whether the belief is a religious belief of the employee or
    prospective employee."

    Clearly, the individual under this provision can be an atheist and still be protected as long as his views are sincerely held just like the criterion for a theist who sought the CRA's protection against religious discrimination (read harassment).

    I'm not saying that the greeting card comment constitutes harassment given it is only one card in a cubicle. But I don't think the employer can ignore the complaint on the basis that complainer is an atheist.

    What would it do if this were a female complaining about a male co-worker's picture of a female friend in a thong bikini? It may not constitute sexual harassment by creating a hostile environment but I suspect the employer would probably try to work something out to prevent the issue becoming more hardened.

    But there is the more fundamental consideration that I think the employer has to deal with. The "rudeness" of the comment directed at athiests, "bite my ass and leave." I'm sure that if a co-worker had said that to the employee with the greeting card, the employer's HR would have been all over the co-worker for making a rude remark.

  • Thanks, Hatchetman! These things sure can get out of hand. I appreciate your 'no nonsense' approach. As an HR professional, you can probably guess something about the personality of the 'card holder'. If we ask her to remove the card (which I think is probably what we will do), another MONSTER will be unleashed....hatti
  • I started to reply, but I think the message got 'lost'. We're sure getting a lot of great responses, and some different points of view, which always good. Thanks. hatti
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-13-03 AT 05:21PM (CST)[/font][p][font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-12-03 AT 04:25 PM (CST)[/font]

    I'm hugely offended by the card - why? Because it's stupid, it's not funny, and it's pushing the owners personal agenda - it had to be visible enough so that this employee in question (and probably others) could see it. Dang straight I would think it would create a hostile work environment - probably not actionable on it's own merit, but could be added to other 'indignities' to create a strong case. The presence of this card basically says to anyone that doesn't believe in the message you can a) shut up about it, or b) get so heated that you now run your mouth off with your co-workers and then threaten legal/government action? (Which is now time & money sinking down the drain to talk and talk and talk and talk and talk about the issue and wonder about legal ramifications, yada, yada, yada)

    Tell the employee with the card to take it down and explain the word 'sensitivity' and 'tasteful' to them. This card and it's wording was intentioned to inflame controversy - and it sure succeeded.


  • Why not just ask the employee who has the card on her desk to just cut out the "or just bite my ass and leave!" Tell her you don't want the profanity on her desk for all to see. Surely her point is that she believes in God.

    Seems that would be an easy solution as long as she has no objections.
  • The Company has the right to decide what is or what can be legally displayed in its offices. Not every employee is going to like or approve of what others display. To have employees going around and around and around saying that they don't like whatever on that or this employees's desk/office/door - is disruptive.

    Chari


  • I think those who are focusing on the "bite my ass" part of the posting as offensive have missed the point. The original post says that the atheist specifically objected to the word "God," and does not mention the second part of the phrase at all. In that narrow context, I do not think the posting would create a hostile environment. Especially within the circumstances of a one-time visit, which seems to be the case with this employee.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-12-03 AT 05:06PM (CST)[/font][p]Just to clarify my point, my reply was in relation to the "God" issue and only partially to the "bite my ass" part. When I talk about 'sensitivity' I specifically mean that not everyone believes in God and therefore could take offense, and 'tasteful' I specifically mean the "bite my ass" part.

    Again, on it's own merits - probably not a legal hostile environment - added to other 'indignities' and you could be looking at trouble.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-12-03 AT 05:32PM (CST)[/font][p]Parabeagle...

    while any act or statement in which harassment or whatever is alleged may turn out not to be that, may have other elements of inappropriate conduct that should be of concern to the employer. Clearly, the "bite my ass" is one even if it wasn't brought up by the employee. Further, if in objective terms, to a reasonable person, if the act or statement is harassing, even if the employee didn't complain about it as such, the employer is still obligated to deal with it. Again, I'm not saying that the "Trust-in-God-or-bite-my-ass-and-leave" statement is harassment but if it had reached that level, even if the employee hadn't objected to the entire statement, I think the employer would be required to do something about it.
  • And I'm certainly not arguing that the item, taken as a whole, is not offensive to some people. I'm merely saying that in the narrow context of facts and circumstances we have been given, acting on the atheist's complaint in a knee-jerk fashion may be overreacting.
  • Here's my 2 cents' worth - I'm curious. You said the guy is "outspokenly" atheist. Does this mean the guy makes statements about his beliefs (or lack thereof) to coworkers? Does he discuss atheism or speak out against others' religious beliefs and practices? Like the others said, this guy seems to have too much time on his hands and is wandering around and being nosy. If he complains again about this obviously patriotic message, I'd remind him that he has the right to not only disagree, but to not look at it again. It was not posted in the lobby or breakroom but unobtrusively in someone's work area. Document, document, document! You may reach the point when you want to show this guy the door. Good luck!
  • Wow, go away for the afternoon, and all hell breaks loose! Oh wait, I don't want to offend, all heck breaks loose. x:D Interesting issues and points, and as usual none are wrong, none are right depending on your personal stance/beliefs.
    Couple of thoughts................ Humor like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What would happen if an employee had a cross on the neck? Would the atheist object? Would we make a fuss over that or again is it a pain in the butt employee just stirring the pot? Are we going to police jewelry like we do cubes.
    What about Dilbert cartoons? As a safety manager who worked for a meat company I had two Dilbert cartoons up in my office. One poked fun at safety one at management. They were discretely posted on the side of a file cabinet. All of the supervisors, and my corporate bosses thought they were hilarious. My plant manager did not find humor in them. (I think the one that poked fun at management hit to close to home x:D ) He wanted me to take them down. I did not refuse, but gave him a hard time, basically embarassed him into dropping the issue. (I was not planning on staying, working conditions were miserable and I was not will to just fall in line, long story)
    Technically anything can be offensive to anyone. I have a no whining sign up in my office most think it is funny I am sure it is not viewed that way by all. I also have duck prints as I hunt.........somtimes I look at them when I want to smack an employee take a deep breath and thing of some enjoyable times in the fields. But I have a vegatarian friend that is offended by the thought of hunting. If they offended an employee I would not change them.

    Wow, I have rambled on.............sorry about that. Fine line this issue here, which we cannot win with. What one person views as a curse, the word damn, another does not. Depending on the work environment what is accepted in one place would be inappropriate in another.
    Evaluate the situation, the complaint, use common sense and your gut and go with the decision.
    My $0.02 worth.
    DJ The Balloonman
  • While I think the atheist is a jerk, you said yourself that the Hallmark card was not in the best taste, and maybe that's the standard you should enforce. I would ask the admin person to get rid of the card and put up something less inflammatory, while letting the jerk know that it's not okay for him to preach against religion either.
  • Imagine if this guy was an Agnostic.
  • Gads is that stuff still around?
  • Hey! I'm agnostic and believe me, its a lot more permissive. While athiests deny the existence of god, agnostics just do not acknowledge one or don't know what to think. That being said, as long as no one tries to push their beliefs on me, I don't push mine (or lack thereof) on anyone else. If I saw that card in someone's cube I'd probably laugh since I love the Maxine character. If someone left it in MY cube, I'd have a big problem. I do not see discrimination or hostile work environment, one glance at a card is hardly "severe and pervasive" which are the two words that count in these claims. If the company gave the cards out, that would be a whole different story. This guy needs to chill out and stop looking in other people's personal spaces. On the other hand, though, I'm not sure anything saying "bite my ass" is appropriate to hang up at work, ever. That belongs on the fridge, at home.
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