I have to admit, when I first saw the post, read it, got done laughing my butt off.......I thought this one is going to one of those that never dies............
My $0.02 The moving out of his house, getting divorced after almost 18 years because she decided she did not love me anymore Balloonman
I'm sorry to hear that. For what it's worth, if there's even a tiny smidge of hope to salvage it; fight for it. If not, there is life afterward! Those of us that have been there and done that feel for you.
DJ, my thoughts and prayers are with you. Mine took place after 19 years. It's a rough road and if I can say anything, it would be this:
Looking back on the whole ordeal, I don't interpret that time of my life as having survived it or lived through it or even endured it. I accomplished it.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-23-05 AT 08:12AM (CST)[/font][br][br]DJ, some of us know how hurtful it is to hear those words. You'll find out that it's not you at all. Love is a decision not a feeling. You're not to blame for someone else's decision no matter what reason is given. I hope you find some comfort in knowing we're here for you.
Christy- I understand where you are coming from. However, what "may be" offensive to some one else, has not been offensive to me. I believe that I (and only I) can judge what is offensive to me (though I agree that pornography has no place on this site). Just as I can turn off the TV, choose not go to a R rated movie, I can, also, change to another topic.
Well I guess I'll put my two cents worth in. I have become annoyed with posts that turn away from the original question and go to a one-on-one "discussion" (and I use that term loosely) over who is right or who is wrong. That being siad, this forum has helped me significantly over the years and I certainly appreciate it's value most of the time! :-)
I'm late to read and post here -- but wouldn't have traded my vacation to be timely. x:D
The only things on the Forum I have ever objected to publicly, privately or in my own head were the personal attacks, the character assassinations by e-bullies. Those are also the things I would object to were we all sitting around a table.
Differing opinions and interpretations are valuable and key to the forum. Mudslinging is a sideshow.
I've been watching this discussion for a while without joining in because Christy has said pretty much what I would say. But I'd like to add a few comments of my own.
M. Lee Smith Publishers invests a lot of money and staff time to operate Employers Forum for the benefit of all members. We try to be as hands-off as possible, but personal attacks and other inappropriate posts will deter a lot of people from participating.
For example, we got an e-mail yesterday from someone who wanted to post an opposing view on this thread but decided not to because they didn't want to endure personal attacks for it. Today someone else said the same thing in a message I'll post below. I don't blame them. Today another Forumite told us that they might drop their newsletter subscription because of the Forum's tone.
The personal attacks have been increasing for a couple of months, and we've received some complaints. And if you think you know who complained, you're almost certainly wrong. The complaints typically come from people who are on the sidelines or on the fringe of a discussion. Even though they're not the victim of this particular attack, they're generally turned off by bullying that stifles debate. They rarely jump into threads like this one, so you might get the mistaken impression that they're only a small minority.
We don't act on every complaint, and sometimes we act without a complaint. Christy acted when she saw a thread full of personal attacks, and I support her 100 percent.
We moderators aren't perfect, but we try to do what's best for the Forum community as a whole. Some people who are very thick-skinned will be upset from time to time; so will very thin-skinned people.
We've contacted everyone who had a post deleted, and we'll be more diligent about this in the future. In return, we ask you to please refrain from personal attacks on the Forum.
James Sokolowski Web Editor HRhero.com [email]WebEditor@HRhero.com[/email]
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-23-05 AT 01:34PM (CST)[/font][br][br] >Today someone else said the same thing in a >message I'll post below. > > Please post the post.
Sorry, x:-8 as I was reading your post 43, you posted 44.
James: Just so you don't get the impression that there is only one viewpoint out here; when it was time to renew my subscription this year, the thing that weighed most heavily in my decision TO RENEW was that the subscription gives me access to the Forum, not the other way around. We get, maybe, several hundred discussions through the forum per month as opposed to a dozen or so articles through the publication.
I think that I'm a little different than some Forum members, however, in that I think in terms that this is YOUR ballgame, you make the rules, and if you don't like what's going on, you can take your bat and ball and go home (pull the plug). This is not some protected, first amendment, guaranteed right of free speech, turf.
You and I may both be excoriated for our viewpoints, but it's your turf, you get to set the rules. The rest of us will participate, or not, based on the value of the game to us.
Here's an e-mail we received today from another Forumite who wanted to express their opinion on this thread but didn't want to open themselves to personal attacks.
James Sokolowski HRhero.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Christy,
I for one appreciate your reminder about forum protocol. There is such a thing as the silent majority -- when researching data to teach a class on dealing with dissatisfied customers, I learned 96% of those dissatisfied DO NOT complain directly. So, the few you have heard from are likely representative of many.
You will note that I chose to respond privately to you rather than post on the form. My reason for doing so is I do not want to get wrapped up in the pointless debate and open myself to the attacks others are so prone to make.
I further disagree with comments that this is nothing more than would be said if we were facing each other. I work in a professional environment and we would NOT tolerate such attacks on one another. A person can say almost anything, but it is HOW it is said that makes the difference!
Again, thank you for your support. As with supervision, doing the "right" thing is not always the "easiest" thing to do and I believe you have done the "right" thing.
Feel free to post my comments as feedback, without my name, please.
I have been rather silent and benign on this topic until now. This is where I draw the line. What a cowardly and unprofessional way to handle a situation, both on the part of the anonymous forumite and on yours for sharing it under the context by which you did.
What does this mean? The person is afraid of posting? Afraid of debate? Or is it "pointless" debate that he/she is afraid of? My problem with the comments above is that it can apply to any thread on any topic and be written by any forumite.
I'm not exactly sure what the point of sharing it is? That the person who wrote is not assertive enough to post it? That they are so thin-skinned, introverted and afraid of debate?
I'm sorry, but the silent minority is what it is. If you're looking for an outlet to research, lurk and read advice from others then get a subscription to MLS printed media. If you want live advice from a consortium of professionals punctuated by some confrontational debate then get on the forum.
There is absolutely no humiliation or name calling in my post. Offensive and distasteful, perhaps. That's your problem. I personally find your post offensive and distasteful since it does nothing but attempt to change subjects. However, that's my problem. I appreciate your candor and openess. It is what makes this forum great!
WHATEVER: I thought there was a computer glitch or the HRHero FORUM police got me with the first. I went away for some other business and came back to discover that my first did not attach and it must be out there in cyberspace, so I whipped out another and left again. This happened one time before, our network covers about 14 states and one never knows when a message is just put out there on the moon. I apologize for not trusting the ole fingers and mechanical devices on which we communicate for the double post. It was not intentional! One post was enough, if it makes it into the pool.
I don't understand. The individual that sent the email to James or Christy "has discovered when researching data to teach a class on dealing with dissatisfied customers, learned 96% of those dissatisfied DO NOT complain directly. So, the few you have heard from are likely representative of many."
How can one assume research on dissatisfied customers correlates to Forum debate? Are 96% of the members of the Forum dissatisfied customers or are 96% of the Forum members the silent majority or are even 96% of the Forum members viisiting the Forum at present?
I, too, feel that if one has an opinion, pro or con, it should be expressed publicly not passed on anonymously. And.......at the same time make statements about attacks from others. How biased is that?
"Feel free to post my comments as feedback, without my name, please."
What this may all point to is a need for diversity training on the part of each or most of us. If I am in group B, I want everybody to act like my group. If I am in group A, I tend to not like the way group B behaves and I want others to emulate group A, my group. If I think my workplace has the highest conduct standards and intolerance for things I don't like, I tend to think others should adopt our approach. If I tend to be silent and not post, I tend to group myself with others who I know must be out there who don't post and are learning from the sidelines. I like my definition of professional and conduct standards and how people ought to behave on a posting site, therefore I think others ought to think just like me or similar to me. If I tend to be outspoken, direct, blunt, sometimes comedic and biting, I tend to side with others who might have those same traits. Then all of these groups; A, B, C, & D either visit the man behind the curtain or put notes in the suggestion box and sit back to see what the man or woman behind the curtain will say and do, each group knowing and praying their suggestion will be adopted. Surely it will be and must be, because I am 'right'.
This is a perfect example for lack of diversity or rather lack of acceptance of other behavior patterns, styles, approaches and mannerisms. None of us will change the others of us. All we can do is offer up our experiences and share advice (right or wrong) and have fun while working hard. If we cross lines that is the problem of line drawers. If people get their pants in a wad, that is the problem of people with wadded pants. If we become offended while having our pants in a wad, that is a double problem calling for medical attention. If we come out of the stands to protest, we must be ready to be engaged, welcomed and engaged. Opinions on a board like this are learned from, they might be challenged, they might be booed, they might be applauded, they might be shouted down or they might put some people in a catatonic state of shock and jitters.
I think that person should act more like me. No, like me. I think you should tell him and her that their tone is disrespectful. I can't see his eyes, but I know what's in his heart. I like her better than him because her sentences are punctuated more accurately and she used to be like me when I was young. I like what he says because he keeps me laughing while learning. I don't like him because he says things no professional would say and I must know because I am a professional. My momma would slap me sideways if I posted what he did. I'm tellin'. I'm staying away altogether. I'm never coming back on this site. I left twelve times and may leave and not come back again.
Find Waldo. Is anyone among us not in there somewhere?
I wish you had not said that. Because when you did it made 10 other people cringe since they object to my style. They've never met me but think they know me and know they don't like me. I have gotten a hundred emails and private mails just like the one above. But, it ain't about me at all. It's more about people who expect that others should act like them and those who buy into the 'offended generation' where everyone is entitled to be offended at least twice a day. And that entitlement mentality takes with it another entitlement, that being a required mandate that the offender(s) be somehow disciplined and made to not offend anymore. It's actually a mild form of mental illness; but that's not the vein of the discussion. If I continue with the Forum, I will look at it like a courtroom. You can say whatever you like in whatever tone you like, using whatever mannerisms you like. BUT, the 'judge' always has the right to call you down, sanction you, perhaps put you in detention, or ultimately expell you from the courtroom. The Forum will never be a homogeneous melting pot and it should not be.
Don: And 5000 of us agree! You have also hit the nail on the head and punched the nail all the way through and you did not scar the table top. And what chapter do I occupy in your BOOK of peace.
The thing I enjoy most about this board, as opposed to others, is that there is NOT an option to post anonymously. I suspect many of those who get flustered with their fear of anything more than cookie cutter Q&A do so to keep from being associated with poor wit and wisdom, or, god help us, the fear of being told we are wrong. (Remember Happy Day's with Fonzie... "I was wrr...wrrr... wrr..." love that stuff.)
My next thought is, however, that the majority of us are still tryly anonymous to each other on this board. No one is forced to look across the table at those who eagerly engage their questions and see them roll their eyes, laugh out loud, stroke their chin as they contemplate a difficult question, etc. Our words we choose in our responses have the unenviable task of conveying all of those personal communication messages. Human nature almost always fills this void with negative or our worst case reactions.
To that end, my position has reached the conclusion of 'suck it up, everyone.' Recognize the value of the expertise of the individuals to whom you are seeking answers from. Each of us has a different style that generally reflects our true personality. Everyone engages with these exact same personality styles at work every day and somehow manages to survive and live to work another day.
Am I sarcastic in person? Yes. Quick to laugh at others and myself? Yes. Genuinely interested in the sharing of knowledge and providing assistance where I am able? Yes. Giving it and taking it is what we do in real life. Do it here as well.
Comments
James Sokolowski
HRhero.com
My $0.02
The moving out of his house, getting divorced after almost 18 years because she decided she did not love me anymore Balloonman
Wait am I allowed to say that?
No wisdom here, just sending good thoughts your way.
Gene
Looking back on the whole ordeal, I don't interpret that time of my life as having survived it or lived through it or even endured it. I accomplished it.
And so will you.
Take care and go well, my friend.
Larry
Cheryl C.
(Sorry if I sound like Ann Landers.)
Just as I can turn off the TV, choose not go to a R rated movie, I can, also, change to another topic.
The only things on the Forum I have ever objected to publicly, privately or in my own head were the personal attacks, the character assassinations by e-bullies. Those are also the things I would object to were we all sitting around a table.
Differing opinions and interpretations are valuable and key to the forum. Mudslinging is a sideshow.
M. Lee Smith Publishers invests a lot of money and staff time to operate Employers Forum for the benefit of all members. We try to be as hands-off as possible, but personal attacks and other inappropriate posts will deter a lot of people from participating.
For example, we got an e-mail yesterday from someone who wanted to post an opposing view on this thread but decided not to because they didn't want to endure personal attacks for it. Today someone else said the same thing in a message I'll post below. I don't blame them. Today another Forumite told us that they might drop their newsletter subscription because of the Forum's tone.
The personal attacks have been increasing for a couple of months, and we've received some complaints. And if you think you know who complained, you're almost certainly wrong. The complaints typically come from people who are on the sidelines or on the fringe of a discussion. Even though they're not the victim of this particular attack, they're generally turned off by bullying that stifles debate. They rarely jump into threads like this one, so you might get the mistaken impression that they're only a small minority.
We don't act on every complaint, and sometimes we act without a complaint. Christy acted when she saw a thread full of personal attacks, and I support her 100 percent.
We moderators aren't perfect, but we try to do what's best for the Forum community as a whole. Some people who are very thick-skinned will be upset from time to time; so will very thin-skinned people.
We've contacted everyone who had a post deleted, and we'll be more diligent about this in the future. In return, we ask you to please refrain from personal attacks on the Forum.
James Sokolowski
Web Editor
HRhero.com
[email]WebEditor@HRhero.com[/email]
>Today someone else said the same thing in a
>message I'll post below.
>
>
Please post the post.
Sorry, x:-8 as I was reading your post 43, you posted 44.
I think that I'm a little different than some Forum members, however, in that I think in terms that this is YOUR ballgame, you make the rules, and if you don't like what's going on, you can take your bat and ball and go home (pull the plug). This is not some protected, first amendment, guaranteed right of free speech, turf.
You and I may both be excoriated for our viewpoints, but it's your turf, you get to set the rules. The rest of us will participate, or not, based on the value of the game to us.
I'm IN, for the time being.
James Sokolowski
HRhero.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Christy,
I for one appreciate your reminder about forum protocol. There is such a thing as the silent majority -- when researching data to teach a class on dealing with dissatisfied customers, I learned 96% of those dissatisfied DO NOT complain directly. So, the few you have heard from are likely representative of many.
You will note that I chose to respond privately to you rather than post on the form. My reason for doing so is I do not want to get wrapped up in the pointless debate and open myself to the attacks others are so prone to make.
I further disagree with comments that this is nothing more than would be said if we were facing each other. I work in a professional environment and we would NOT tolerate such attacks on one another. A person can say almost anything, but it is HOW it is said that makes the difference!
Again, thank you for your support. As with supervision, doing the "right" thing is not always the "easiest" thing to do and I believe you have done the "right" thing.
Feel free to post my comments as feedback, without my name, please.
What does this mean? The person is afraid of posting? Afraid of debate? Or is it "pointless" debate that he/she is afraid of? My problem with the comments above is that it can apply to any thread on any topic and be written by any forumite.
I'm not exactly sure what the point of sharing it is? That the person who wrote is not assertive enough to post it? That they are so thin-skinned, introverted and afraid of debate?
I'm sorry, but the silent minority is what it is. If you're looking for an outlet to research, lurk and read advice from others then get a subscription to MLS printed media. If you want live advice from a consortium of professionals punctuated by some confrontational debate then get on the forum.
Gene
Gene
PORK
PORK
xhugs
PORK
How can one assume research on dissatisfied customers correlates to Forum debate? Are 96% of the members of the Forum dissatisfied customers or are 96% of the Forum members the silent majority or are even 96% of the Forum members viisiting the Forum at present?
I, too, feel that if one has an opinion, pro or con, it should be expressed publicly not passed on anonymously. And.......at the same time make statements about attacks from others. How biased is that?
"Feel free to post my comments as feedback, without my name, please."
I cry fowl.
This is a perfect example for lack of diversity or rather lack of acceptance of other behavior patterns, styles, approaches and mannerisms. None of us will change the others of us. All we can do is offer up our experiences and share advice (right or wrong) and have fun while working hard. If we cross lines that is the problem of line drawers. If people get their pants in a wad, that is the problem of people with wadded pants. If we become offended while having our pants in a wad, that is a double problem calling for medical attention. If we come out of the stands to protest, we must be ready to be engaged, welcomed and engaged. Opinions on a board like this are learned from, they might be challenged, they might be booed, they might be applauded, they might be shouted down or they might put some people in a catatonic state of shock and jitters.
I think that person should act more like me. No, like me. I think you should tell him and her that their tone is disrespectful. I can't see his eyes, but I know what's in his heart. I like her better than him because her sentences are punctuated more accurately and she used to be like me when I was young. I like what he says because he keeps me laughing while learning. I don't like him because he says things no professional would say and I must know because I am a professional. My momma would slap me sideways if I posted what he did. I'm tellin'. I'm staying away altogether. I'm never coming back on this site. I left twelve times and may leave and not come back again.
Find Waldo. Is anyone among us not in there somewhere?
He (as well as many others) has great ideas, suggestions, advice, etc.
I must leave now and purchase some boots because it's getting pretty deep in here. Oops, did I offend anyone?
PORK
RespecTFully,
DD
My next thought is, however, that the majority of us are still tryly anonymous to each other on this board. No one is forced to look across the table at those who eagerly engage their questions and see them roll their eyes, laugh out loud, stroke their chin as they contemplate a difficult question, etc. Our words we choose in our responses have the unenviable task of conveying all of those personal communication messages. Human nature almost always fills this void with negative or our worst case reactions.
To that end, my position has reached the conclusion of 'suck it up, everyone.' Recognize the value of the expertise of the individuals to whom you are seeking answers from. Each of us has a different style that generally reflects our true personality. Everyone engages with these exact same personality styles at work every day and somehow manages to survive and live to work another day.
Am I sarcastic in person? Yes. Quick to laugh at others and myself? Yes. Genuinely interested in the sharing of knowledge and providing assistance where I am able? Yes. Giving it and taking it is what we do in real life. Do it here as well.
http://deephousepage.com/smilies/nopityA.gif[/IMG]
#1 thing a consultant shouldn't say: "I could tell you the answer right now, but we're committed to a three month project..." #-o