Watching the news yesterday was fascinating. This issue is very divisive yet the rallies held all over the country were peaceful - almost celebratory.
On CNN, Lou Dobbs bemoaned illegal immigration and the negative influence it had on our economy and national security. Meanwhile, Andersoon Cooper strolled among the protestors in Los Angelos and seemed to be genuinely caught up in the spirit of the moment.
Quit sending me private emails. If there is something you want to discuss, I'll do it here. I responded to your post because I thought it was humorous that you felt you would be there at the rally to make sure nothing happened. You are quite impressive to be able to control thousands of people.
I assume that you did not mean that, but hell, I don't know.
I read posts and respond when I can. You throw yourself out on this forum in a "look at me" way. IMHO, when you do that you should be prepared for some feedback.
I sent you a private e-mail Smace asking you what your beef with me is because I didn't want to hijack an interesting and informative thread.
Hey, I would probably agree with you on the "look at me" comment. My wife would too. I don't think it defines my forum contribution though. Nor do I need you to be my personal ankle biter.
In my opinion, calling me names makes it much more "about me" than anything I have said. Everybody else seems to be able to stay on topic but you.
My guess is we have more in common than not. So, I don't understand the animosity.
I have no beef with you. When someone makes a comment that I think is right, wrong, ridiculous, humorous, etc, I sometimes respond.
It has nothing to do with who someone is or what I have in common with them.
I'm sorry that my comments upset you. But if you or anyone else makes a comment in the above categories, I'll probably respond. Feel free to do the same with me. I'm sure I deserve some feedback too.
I am still trying to decide who is more arrogant, me or you. Regardless, there is nothing to be gained from arguing. You deserve the benefit of the doubt.
This is why I didn't respond to your private email. I should have kept my mouth shut here too.
I deserve the benefit of doubt?????? Super Gringo is giving me the benefit of doubt. Zippity f'in doo-da.
I'll tell you what. When I think you say something ridiculous, I'll keep my mouth shut. Then you'll quit asking me why I don't like you. We'll both be happy, right?
Well this is pretty much over now as a topic. All was quiet here, we had a small student demonstration in Boise.
I did not hear of anyone leaving work without permission from any HR people in the area.
I love that in American we have the right to protest and I do not begrudge anyone that right.
I just feel as a human being that even on a personal level an employee should feel enough respect and loyalty to the employer that gave them a job to simply ask for the time off ahead of time and make it easier for the employer. It would make for a lot better feelings between the employer and the employee.
If I were an employer looking to promote or hand out a raise just common sense would apply:
Am I going to give the promotion or the raise to
A. The employee that walked out on their job B. The employee that asked for the time off C. The employee that stayed and worked
The same would apply to a Reduction in Force. Which of the A, B, C. above will I let go first if I need to reduce my workforce.
These are some things that all employees regardless of race need to think about.
Sad side note to all of this immigration talk. A couple of weeks ago, you may remember four of our SHRM chapter members assisted at the local job fair. I spoke on interviewing tips.
Afterwards, the four of us stayed to review student resumes and offer feedback on interviewing. We only had a couple students come by. One of them was named Jaime.
Jaime was a sophomore and was pretty shy. To draw him out we asked what his perfect job would be. He replied "actor" and his face lit up. From that point, he was very talkative and engaging. He told us about running track and his three siblings.
Today, at our SHRM chapter meeting, our treasurer told those of us who had met Jaime that his parents had been swept up in an INS raid on our local cannery just the week before the May 1st walkout.
Jaime's parents are gone leaving Jaime with his three siblings to fend for themselves. The youngest is just two years old. I doubt he got to say goodbye. Its my understanding that he came home from school and they were gone.
His parents CHOSE to come to the US illegally. They took the chance and their kids are having to deal with that chance. They broke the law and were caught. You may not like the law, but it is what it is.
I'm going to guess that those children are not wandering the streets digging out of trash cans. I'm sure that social services and our tax dollars are taking care of them.
That is a sad tale, however, I can only feel sad that the parents put their children through this.
If they had obeyed the law and immigrated through legal channels than their family would be together.
When you break laws than sad and unfortunate things happen. You hurt not only yourself but those around you.
We have laws in this country for a reason. If one law is allowed to be broken where would the tide stop. Which other laws would be tossed aside.
The laws are for our protection and made by the people and the lawmakers that we as people elect. If we don't like them than we must change them. Until they are changed we must obey them.
In a civilized world this is how it has to be. Many do not like to hear that, but it is the truth.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 05-04-06 AT 09:23AM (CST)[/font][br][br]No, I can't imagine. It's heartbreaking.
Regardless of the fact that these parents "chose" to come to the U.S. illegally, the children are now the tragic victims of that choice, just as all children are either the victims or beneficiaries of their parents' choices.
"Too bad, you chose to break the law" might (but isn't always) a valid thing to say to adults. "Too bad, your parents broke the law" is something a child should never have to hear. Not to mention, "Don't worry -- you might never see your mom and dad again, but you'll be going into our wonderful social service system, which will include a foster home that might be adequate, if you're lucky, or might be horrifying."
It's much more real when you hear this about a kid that you made personal contact with -- as you did, Paul.
Of course it's heartbreaking. Just as heartbreaking when a child is taken from a parent manufacturing meth. And of course, their drug addiction is not their fault. It is society's fault.
Life's a bitch. And you have to live with the consequences of your actions. Anything otherwise (IMO) is what is wrong with this world. The woman who sued McDonald's over the hot coffee- it wasn't her fault.
Do you really think these kids are never going to see their parents again? I would assume they will be deported and their kids will go with them back to Mexico. What do you assume?
My other question for you is how should this situation be handled?
I am no bleeding heart, believe me. I only mention this story because it personalized this issue for me in a very powerful way. You can't make policies based on emotion but I think there is some place for compassion in how our society deals with people.
I think we need to make the distinction between someone who is here in the country without proper documentation and a "criminal".
What frustrates me is that I feel we have sent mixed messages to undocumented workers. We have provided them jobs, drivers licenses, health care, etc. We have educated their children and given them the hope that their kids might have it better than the parents did.
Then we swoop in on a sunny spring afternoon and the kids come home to an empty house.
I think we need to: - secure our borders so WE are controlling who comes in and out of our country - enroll undocumented workers who have a job in a worker program that brings them out of the shadows - streamline the process of citizenship - deport anyone who is here to suck off the system or commit crime - punish employers who take advantage of undocumented workers by paying them a pittance.
People without proper documentation are criminals. I agree with punishing employers who exploit the workers but what type of worker programs are you talking about? And how do we secure thousands of miles of desert?
As for securing thousands of miles of desert, obviously that is a problem. I think it will be less of a concern if we create a program that makes it possible for immigrant workers to work here legally and come through the front door.
Then, we can spend more time and energy on enforcement: deporting criminals, fining businesses that continue to break the law, deporting workers who refuse to join the worker program, etc.
I understand one of the new proposals would make illegal immigrants felons. I think we ought to make employers who knowingly hire such workers felons. It isn't enough to fine them. They make so much more in the long run, even with fines, that fines are no deterrant. Throw them all in jail. The mere threat will make a huge difference.
My feelings on the undocumented workers issue is very mixed, like I imagine many Americans feel. I can't trace my family far, but my husband's brother did some research and proudly sent us a glass with the coat of arms on it. I laughed and laughed later when I found out it wasn't really the family name. No one knows what the real family name was, because the original immigrant claimed a new one and never told a soul what the old one was. Why? He came here illegally. He came from Ireland. He was supposed to land at Ellis Island, but you had to have $5 to be admitted to this country and he didn't. So, he jumped ship and lived the rest of his life in fear that someone would find out who he was and send him back.
The Irish were despised at first. They took the low paying jobs and were accused of bringing down wages for everyone. However, it was not that easy to identify Irish immigrants once they learned to speak English the way we do, and so they blended into society.
A lot of what I hear as complaints has to do with hispanic immigrants not blending in and bringing their heritage with them. Also, there are so very many more coming here than ever before. It sounds like the same old refrain. We are afraid of them. Some fears are groundless; some are not.
The parents Paul mentioned took the risk and now the children are probably very frightened. However, the parents also knew they were taking this risk and probably had a plan in place in the event this happened. Also, they must have felt the risk was worth it. I feel for the kids, but I also feel for the parents who must be worried sick about how their children are coping.
They broke the law to come here. In their place, would I have done the same?
We need less complaining and more solutions. We need to stop the huge influx and do something about the millions already here. I wish I was smart enough to have an answer, but there probably isn't one. So instead we will have to go with the next best thing which probably won't come even close. Still, a step ahead is a step in the right direction and by continuing to step ahead we will get there eventually.
I agree that we have handled immigration wrong and need to fix it. Yes, we should have been enforcing our laws but unfortunately, we did not do a very good job of it. We allowed the problem to continue until it became what it is today.
I do feel for those children. I still think we have to enforce the laws. I think it was handled badly. The children should have been united with the parents and all sent back to Mexico until they could go through the proper channels to immigrate legally to our country.
I also know many immigrants that have entered legally through our system. Some of them have given up much and gone through much to become part of our Country. Why should they do all the work and suffer years trying to immigrate and the illegals have amnesty? There are many other countries with people wishing to immigrate and they are all waiting thier turn. I hired a Vietnamese girl once and she was one of my best employees. Yes, she did speak our language and she obeyed our laws.
Some things in life are not fair. I guess where you are born is one of them. We have not always made the right policies and we passed laws which punished our own citizens and they have had to obey them. We put our own Japanese citizens in concentration camps in the U.S. , We took the land away from my ancestors and put them on reservations to starve and tried to kill those that did not follow the law (their fate for breaking the law was death), We treated the blacks as slaves. Now we want to give amnesty to people here against the law. I still just do not understand this reasoning. I am sorry but it just does not work for me.
Sorry Paul I guess each person has his own opinion. I am not a narrow minded person either, but I have seen enough to know that we have to have some order and we have to obey laws or we have nothing short of chaos.
I'm not sure how we got from self-excusing drug addicts and frivolous law suits to kids separated from their parents through no fault of their own.
Do I really think these kids are never going to see their parents again? I have no idea and I assume nothing, but I'm sure that's what those kids are thinking right now. Put yourself inside a child's mind and imagine the abject terror.
How should this situation be handled? If you mean the whole immigration and undocumented worker issue, I don't have all -- or even many -- of the answers, but I agree with some of the possible approaches Paul has outlined. If you mean this specific situation with this family, I'm sure there's a better approach than "Life's a bitch."
>I'm not sure how we got from self-excusing drug >addicts and frivolous law suits to kids >separated from their parents through no fault of >their own.
It's called sarcasm. I'm trying to get you to really think about what you are saying. You can excuse any behavior. Is it OK to excuse people breaking our immigration laws and not excuse people breaking our drug laws? Who gets to decide, you? Should we let the illegals out because we have a bad social service system? Do we do that for other lawbreakers? >How should this situation be handled?
If you >mean this specific situation with this family, >I'm sure there's a better approach than "Life's >a bitch."
Yes, that was what I'm asking. Well I guess we could march, hold hands, cry and sing kumbaya about it. It might make some people FEEL better, but it's not going to solve anything.
The other thing that can be done is follow our country's laws.
Amen Mace. Many of my employees are Asian and you talk about some heartbreaking stories. One young engineer spent 7 years in the Phillipines, in a camp waiting year after year for a sponsor. They are not allowed to work so spent the days doing what they could to improve their education. But in the end, they followed the rules and are here now legally and are on their way to citizenship.
SMace: Maybe I should type more slowly so you'll understand this (that's called sarcasm): I'm not talking about the parents, I'm talking about the kids. Your glib reference several posts above that "I'm sure that social services and our tax dollars are taking care of them" is what I'm reacting to.
My point was that Paul would have you think these kids are wandering the streets fighting dogs for food. Gimme a freakin' break.
Yes, they lost their parents temporarily. And that is terrible and should happen to no one. But it happens all the time. My wife's dad abandoned her. So did her mom, eventually. Life's a bitch. She made it through. So will these kids.
This whole argument could become somewhat moot with Mexico legalizing drugs that are illegal north of the border. Reverse illegal immigration with Americans flooding across the border for a quick fix? Actually, take it a step further, will the new problem be US citizens and legal aliens smuggling legitimately purchased drugs in Mexico across the border for illegal resale?
Ray, thats already happening here in Texas. You can cross the border, go to a doctor who writes a script and legally bring your drugs back across. Of course, you must only bring across what you are going to use personally (lol). Thats where most of our street Xanax, valium, etc. come from.
Actually, Smace, marching, holding hands, crying, and singing kumbaya can change a lot.
Protests like that were a major part of the social upheavals of the 1960s that made the civil rights movement possible. Its also an incredibly important part of citizenship - the right to speak out and be heard.
The marches and protests don't create change but they bring attention to the issue and challenge people to think and discuss issues and that is what we are doing here.
I understand alot of people feel very differently about this issue than I do, including my brother who lives in Southern California. I have heard their frustrations but I dont hear alot of solutions that seem realistic coming from the "illegal is illegal" camp.
We should look at ways to make it easier for everyone in the future. The U.S. and Canada have an agreement where the Canadian's that work in the U.S. can cross the border to work and they have extended visa's . They have to be sponsored by a company...well can we not do the same thing. That way when a family enters the U.S. to work they are sponsored by a farmer, a company of some kind, have a job to come to. They should be required to learn English as part of their work agreement because if you live in the country you must learn their language. Last of all they should obey all the laws of our country.
This way we could screenout the undesireables and hire the workers.
I think the company should show proof that the job is not taking away from the unemployed in the U.S. and it is not true that the hispanics only do the undesireable jobs. Some may, not all.
My total point is it needs to be a regulated system with checks and balances to protect our American population and to help the immigrant to a better life the legal way.
Interesting about the Canadians. I once read that there are more Canadians here illegally than Hispanics (admittedly it was several years ago) but we don't realize it since they don't look any different than us other than a propensity to say "ey" a lot . . . as in, "doncha know there, ey?" :>)
My experience in teaching ESL is that many, many immigrants are learning English as fast as they can. Their children are growing up bilingual. My great-grandpa spoke very poor, broken English, but my grandpa ended up retaining very little German.
With that, I'll put in a plug - volunteer one night a week with an ESL class. (Or once a month. They'll be glad for the help, most likely) Be part of the solution! (Do I sound like a public service announcement yet?) xhugs
Comments
On CNN, Lou Dobbs bemoaned illegal immigration and the negative influence it had on our economy and national security. Meanwhile, Andersoon Cooper strolled among the protestors in Los Angelos and seemed to be genuinely caught up in the spirit of the moment.
It all seemed very American to me.
I assume that you did not mean that, but hell, I don't know.
I read posts and respond when I can. You throw yourself out on this forum in a "look at me" way. IMHO, when you do that you should be prepared for some feedback.
Hey, I would probably agree with you on the "look at me" comment. My wife would too. I don't think it defines my forum contribution though. Nor do I need you to be my personal ankle biter.
In my opinion, calling me names makes it much more "about me" than anything I have said. Everybody else seems to be able to stay on topic but you.
My guess is we have more in common than not. So, I don't understand the animosity.
It has nothing to do with who someone is or what I have in common with them.
I'm sorry that my comments upset you. But if you or anyone else makes a comment in the above categories, I'll probably respond. Feel free to do the same with me. I'm sure I deserve some feedback too.
I deserve the benefit of doubt?????? Super Gringo is giving me the benefit of doubt. Zippity f'in doo-da.
I'll tell you what. When I think you say something ridiculous, I'll keep my mouth shut. Then you'll quit asking me why I don't like you. We'll both be happy, right?
I did not hear of anyone leaving work without permission from any HR people in the area.
I love that in American we have the right to protest and I do not begrudge anyone that right.
I just feel as a human being that even on a personal level an employee should feel enough respect and loyalty to the employer that gave them a job to simply ask for the time off ahead of time and make it easier for the employer. It would make for a lot better feelings between the employer and the employee.
If I were an employer looking to promote or hand out a raise just common sense would apply:
Am I going to give the promotion or the raise to
A. The employee that walked out on their job
B. The employee that asked for the time off
C. The employee that stayed and worked
The same would apply to a Reduction in Force.
Which of the A, B, C. above will I let go first if I need to reduce my workforce.
These are some things that all employees regardless of race need to think about.
Shirley
Afterwards, the four of us stayed to review student resumes and offer feedback on interviewing. We only had a couple students come by. One of them was named Jaime.
Jaime was a sophomore and was pretty shy. To draw him out we asked what his perfect job would be. He replied "actor" and his face lit up. From that point, he was very talkative and engaging. He told us about running track and his three siblings.
Today, at our SHRM chapter meeting, our treasurer told those of us who had met Jaime that his parents had been swept up in an INS raid on our local cannery just the week before the May 1st walkout.
Jaime's parents are gone leaving Jaime with his three siblings to fend for themselves. The youngest is just two years old. I doubt he got to say goodbye. Its my understanding that he came home from school and they were gone.
Can you imagine?
I'm going to guess that those children are not wandering the streets digging out of trash cans. I'm sure that social services and our tax dollars are taking care of them.
If they had obeyed the law and immigrated through legal channels than their family would be together.
When you break laws than sad and unfortunate things happen. You hurt not only yourself but those around you.
We have laws in this country for a reason. If one law is allowed to be broken where would the tide stop. Which other laws would be tossed aside.
The laws are for our protection and made by the people and the lawmakers that we as people elect. If we don't like them than we must change them. Until they are changed we must obey them.
In a civilized world this is how it has to be. Many do not like to hear that, but it is the truth.
Shirley
Regardless of the fact that these parents "chose" to come to the U.S. illegally, the children are now the tragic victims of that choice, just as all children are either the victims or beneficiaries of their parents' choices.
"Too bad, you chose to break the law" might (but isn't always) a valid thing to say to adults. "Too bad, your parents broke the law" is something a child should never have to hear. Not to mention, "Don't worry -- you might never see your mom and dad again, but you'll be going into our wonderful social service system, which will include a foster home that might be adequate, if you're lucky, or might be horrifying."
It's much more real when you hear this about a kid that you made personal contact with -- as you did, Paul.
Life's a bitch. And you have to live with the consequences of your actions. Anything otherwise (IMO) is what is wrong with this world. The woman who sued McDonald's over the hot coffee- it wasn't her fault.
Do you really think these kids are never going to see their parents again? I would assume they will be deported and their kids will go with them back to Mexico. What do you assume?
My other question for you is how should this situation be handled?
I think we need to make the distinction between someone who is here in the country without proper documentation and a "criminal".
What frustrates me is that I feel we have sent mixed messages to undocumented workers. We have provided them jobs, drivers licenses, health care, etc. We have educated their children and given them the hope that their kids might have it better than the parents did.
Then we swoop in on a sunny spring afternoon and the kids come home to an empty house.
I think we need to:
- secure our borders so WE are controlling who comes in and out of our country
- enroll undocumented workers who have a job in a worker program that brings them out of the shadows
- streamline the process of citizenship
- deport anyone who is here to suck off the system or commit crime
- punish employers who take advantage of undocumented workers by paying them a pittance.
As for securing thousands of miles of desert, obviously that is a problem. I think it will be less of a concern if we create a program that makes it possible for immigrant workers to work here legally and come through the front door.
Then, we can spend more time and energy on enforcement: deporting criminals, fining businesses that continue to break the law, deporting workers who refuse to join the worker program, etc.
That is what makes sense to me anyways.
My feelings on the undocumented workers issue is very mixed, like I imagine many Americans feel. I can't trace my family far, but my husband's brother did some research and proudly sent us a glass with the coat of arms on it. I laughed and laughed later when I found out it wasn't really the family name. No one knows what the real family name was, because the original immigrant claimed a new one and never told a soul what the old one was. Why? He came here illegally. He came from Ireland. He was supposed to land at Ellis Island, but you had to have $5 to be admitted to this country and he didn't. So, he jumped ship and lived the rest of his life in fear that someone would find out who he was and send him back.
The Irish were despised at first. They took the low paying jobs and were accused of bringing down wages for everyone. However, it was not that easy to identify Irish immigrants once they learned to speak English the way we do, and so they blended into society.
A lot of what I hear as complaints has to do with hispanic immigrants not blending in and bringing their heritage with them. Also, there are so very many more coming here than ever before. It sounds like the same old refrain. We are afraid of them. Some fears are groundless; some are not.
The parents Paul mentioned took the risk and now the children are probably very frightened. However, the parents also knew they were taking this risk and probably had a plan in place in the event this happened. Also, they must have felt the risk was worth it. I feel for the kids, but I also feel for the parents who must be worried sick about how their children are coping.
They broke the law to come here. In their place, would I have done the same?
We need less complaining and more solutions. We need to stop the huge influx and do something about the millions already here. I wish I was smart enough to have an answer, but there probably isn't one. So instead we will have to go with the next best thing which probably won't come even close. Still, a step ahead is a step in the right direction and by continuing to step ahead we will get there eventually.
nae
I do feel for those children. I still think we have to enforce the laws. I think it was handled badly. The children should have been united with the parents and all sent back to Mexico until they could go through the proper channels to immigrate legally to our country.
I also know many immigrants that have entered legally through our system. Some of them have given up much and gone through much to become part of our Country. Why should they do all the work and suffer years trying to immigrate and the illegals have amnesty? There are many other countries with people wishing to immigrate and they are all waiting thier turn. I hired a Vietnamese girl once and she was one of my best employees. Yes, she did speak our language and she obeyed our laws.
Some things in life are not fair. I guess where you are born is one of them. We have not always made the right policies and we passed laws which punished our own citizens and they have had to obey them. We put our own Japanese citizens in concentration camps in the U.S. , We took the land away from my ancestors and put them on reservations to starve and tried to kill those that did not follow the law (their fate for breaking the law was death), We treated the blacks as slaves. Now we want to give amnesty to people here against the law. I still just do not understand this reasoning. I am sorry but it just does not work for me.
Sorry Paul I guess each person has his own opinion. I am not a narrow minded person either, but I have seen enough to know that we have to have some order and we have to obey laws or we have nothing short of chaos.
Shirley
Do I really think these kids are never going to see their parents again? I have no idea and I assume nothing, but I'm sure that's what those kids are thinking right now. Put yourself inside a child's mind and imagine the abject terror.
How should this situation be handled? If you mean the whole immigration and undocumented worker issue, I don't have all -- or even many -- of the answers, but I agree with some of the possible approaches Paul has outlined. If you mean this specific situation with this family, I'm sure there's a better approach than "Life's a bitch."
>addicts and frivolous law suits to kids
>separated from their parents through no fault of
>their own.
It's called sarcasm. I'm trying to get you to really think about what you are saying. You can excuse any behavior. Is it OK to excuse people breaking our immigration laws and not excuse people breaking our drug laws? Who gets to decide, you? Should we let the illegals out because we have a bad social service system? Do we do that for other lawbreakers?
>How should this situation be handled?
If you
>mean this specific situation with this family,
>I'm sure there's a better approach than "Life's
>a bitch."
Yes, that was what I'm asking. Well I guess we could march, hold hands, cry and sing kumbaya about it. It might make some people FEEL better, but it's not going to solve anything.
The other thing that can be done is follow our country's laws.
Yes, they lost their parents temporarily. And that is terrible and should happen to no one. But it happens all the time. My wife's dad abandoned her. So did her mom, eventually. Life's a bitch. She made it through. So will these kids.
Protests like that were a major part of the social upheavals of the 1960s that made the civil rights movement possible. Its also an incredibly important part of citizenship - the right to speak out and be heard.
The marches and protests don't create change but they bring attention to the issue and challenge people to think and discuss issues and that is what we are doing here.
I understand alot of people feel very differently about this issue than I do, including my brother who lives in Southern California. I have heard their frustrations but I dont hear alot of solutions that seem realistic coming from the "illegal is illegal" camp.
Sarcasm aside, what do you think we should do?
In the situation you described, FOLLOW THE LAW. Arrest the illegals, fine the company and deport the family.
We should look at ways to make it easier for everyone in the future. The U.S. and Canada have an agreement where the Canadian's that work in the U.S. can cross the border to work and they have extended visa's . They have to be sponsored by a company...well can we not do the same thing. That way when a family enters the U.S. to work they are sponsored by a farmer, a company of some kind, have a job to come to. They should be required to learn English as part of their work agreement because if you live in the country you must learn their language. Last of all they should obey all the laws of our country.
This way we could screenout the undesireables and hire the workers.
I think the company should show proof that the job is not taking away from the unemployed in the U.S. and it is not true that the hispanics only do the undesireable jobs. Some may, not all.
My total point is it needs to be a regulated system with checks and balances to protect our American population and to help the immigrant to a better life the legal way.
Shirley
My experience in teaching ESL is that many, many immigrants are learning English as fast as they can. Their children are growing up bilingual. My great-grandpa spoke very poor, broken English, but my grandpa ended up retaining very little German.
With that, I'll put in a plug - volunteer one night a week with an ESL class. (Or once a month. They'll be glad for the help, most likely) Be part of the solution! (Do I sound like a public service announcement yet?) xhugs