Just because you accomodate someone does not mean you regard them as disabled. Many courts have held that fact. If that was the case companies would be very, very reluctant to accomodate anything and that goes against the intention of ADA.
Even SteelBoy understands why the bank would accomodate. Do we need to fill out ADA paperwork to get something that would make us feel comfortable in the workplace...especially given this situation. It seems that there is plenty of other destructive behavior here that needs to be dealt with...directly.
The important point is how she is dealing with these requests...is she constructive and rational in making these requests? or is she being a pain in the but WHINER.
It seems to me that she is not being very constructive in dealing with her issues, which may largely be due to her stroke. If that's the case, mswild 31 seems to have the answer.
If someone claims a disability, all that paperwork is good. But lets keep that ADA ying yang out of the equation unless we have to deal with it. Responding to courteous, logical requests are something every employer should do. No need for HR mumbo jumbo crap to do that.
It's a bit more than 'ADA Ying Yang' once the employer has information that allows it to reasonably conclude that a disability is or might be present. She does not have to wave an ADA flag to invoke the protections afforded by the Act. You may not yet have enough information to reach a conclusion; however, you do indeed have enough information to advance to the 'interactive process' stage, which is a requirement of the Act.
I don't call it HR mumbo jumbo crap. I like to think of it as a 'stay out of jail card'.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-06-04 AT 07:13AM (CST)[/font][br][br]YAAAAWWWWWNNNNN. Okie Doke, Don S, here ya go.
Your stay out of jail card becomes HR mumbo jumbo when its the only lifeline you cling to in doing your job.
Look back to the inquiry that I responded to. It asked why even deal with the noise and brightness. My response was phrased logically using good common business sense which, also, adhered to the law. Your response was HR mumbo jumbo. If you want mumbo jumbo, here ya go:
"Whereas traditional employment discrimination law is prohibitory, the ADA requires the employer to interact with the disabled individual to make an accommodation for those limitations. Further, the interactive process requires the employer to engage in a form of individualized bargaining with the employee.
Traditional employment discrimination cases only require the courts to apply the relatively objective standard of equality of treatment, a standard free of determinations of fairness. The ADA's "reasonable accommodation" standard is open-ended, subjective and allows–often requires–the fact-finder to judge the fairness of an employer's policies as applied to the disabled."
Does this get you excited? Is it makin' ya happy?
Wasnt' the bank already doing this? YES! Wasn't there other issues that needed to be dealt with other than this mumbo jumbo? YES!
Ever ask an electrician why the lights don't work? Instead of answering that the bulb is burned out, you may hear, "Light bulbs have a very simple structure. At the base, they have two metal contacts, which connect to the ends of an electrical circuit...blah, blah, blah."
What academic institution did you get your electrical engineering degree from?
I'm operating under the assumption that people who come to this site have access to the ADA. It appeared in this situation, that they were having a much more difficult time dealing with the behavior. Awww heck, what am I talking about. Who cares about behavior, I'm in HR, I'll stick with the mumbo jumbo.
Wait, please! While you're ranting and copying and pasting, please do tell us what "ADA paperwork" is. That's a new one on me, but I see you've referred to it. Maybe I missed that seminar.
Steelboy-You have too many rules. While, one of the important requirements of the job (if not the most important requirement) is to protect the company, if I had to gave up my humanity to do it, I would change jobs.
We do agree about how the ADA applies in this situation. It's how the HR professional would tackle it.
Giving up humanity? Are we suggesting that HR folk who are business leaders give up their humanity?
Don S...once again your reply is getting into the mumbo jumbo. I don't even recall referring to ADA paperwork. If I did, do we need to discuss how some companies document these things? I think you are fully up to speed on that and are knit picking the crap out of it.
My stance is this. Behave like business people. Don't cling to the mumbo jumbo. Have the mumbo jumbo in YOUR head as you engage people and situations so that you can keep your company out of trouble. You need to know about the mumbo jumbo and pay very close attention to it. But don't let it get in the way of being a business person. The legal issues that my organization faces are so few and far between because of simple, common sense BUSINESS practices...not HR mumbo jumbo. The organziation that uses the mumbo jumbo to deal with the issues is not a nice place to work.
If your primary job is to keep your company out of trouble, you're right on target. I focus my efforts on profitability...which just happens to keep the company out of trouble.
And I'll always copy and paste mumbo jumbo. I will never waste energy pulling it out of my head. Leaving that stuff in your head eats away at the important stuff. Please, no more accusations about lack of mumbo jumbo protocol and crappy details. Those things get done, but in a very different fashion.
That makes me tired. Any real comments as to the substance of the reply? or just careless mud slinging.
Do you take offense to the term mumbo jumbo? How much time did you spend analyzing the reply to come up with this crafty little reply?
Very valuable stuff. I'm impressed.
If you want to reply in an impressive fashion, do as SMACE has done on the personnel file issue. He actually came up with real info that highlighted a careless reply on the behalf of SteelBoy. That's a valuable reply. Yours indicates defensiveness.
Actually it took me about 10 seconds and if you can't handle a little kidding then the forum is not the place for you. As has been said I too am getting tired of the phrase " mumbo jumbo". I also agree with a post in another thread that questions your fondness for this proffesion. Do you hate HR?
Only when people complicate it with ying yang. I'll swap terms so you don't grow tired of reading the same stuff.
The bean counter who fails due to his inability to appropriately apply his/her beanie knowledge meets the same fate as the electrical engineer who cannot succinctly explain the lack of light...just as the HR person who cannot behave in a business world fails as their only weapon is a policy book and regs.
HR ying yang only when necessary and then as little as possible. Stop the insanity, stop the ying yang!!!
Okay but one more question....when you say ying yang, are you talking about yin yang? As in the "opposite and complementary forces" described in the I-Ching? Or ying yang as in the band? Or perhaps you're referring to ylang ylang also known as cananga odorata? ;;)
OK, everyone - it's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out. x:=|
SteelBoy, welcome to the Forum. As one of the moderators, I need to tell you that there are rules of engagement for the Forum. Basically, we ask everyone to treat each other with basic respect and avoid personal attacks, just like in any other business setting. [url]http://www.hrhero.com/employersforum/help4.shtml[/url]
I'm not saying you or anyone else crossed the line in this thread. Frankly, when there's this much give and take, I don't have the time or energy to sort it all out unless someone complains, or if we see something that clearly crosses the line.
That's all you'll hear from me for now because I'm leaving work. It's my birthday, and I'm dragging my daughter to a Japanese steak house. This discussion put me in the mood for some (mumbo) jumbo shrimp.
JS- It's nice to see that there is someone monitoring this as I come to this site for input, answers or general brainstorming - not to "listen" to such silly banter. While I think humor is wonderful, don't you offer Har-de-har for that? I thought this was a serious website with professionals responding to legitimate questions. Unfortunately in our area some issues may seem trivial, but those are often the ones that become a time bomb. I see HR as handling human issues with both professionalism & compassion.
HRDallas, welcome to the forum. If you do indeed come to this site for "input, answers and general brainstorming" you will receive it. You will also receive comraderie and even friendship. Personally, I consider some of the folks on the forum to be mentors. However, we do joke around - to let off steam, have some fun, and keep things light (even James!). We're human, we work hard, and (especially) on Fridays we can get a little silly. I think it's healthy. Things can get off topic and threads can get pretty long. If you don't enjoy the jokes, silliness, etc. then don't read the threads that contain them. Cinderella
I believe that HRDallas had a valid point. I've been here long enough to know that this type of banter belongs in the Har-de-har-har section. It's just tough to keep some of these "conversations" to the serious side sometimes. Hang in there HRDallas, it really is a great resource!
Okay, who ordered the pizza half-Hawaiian and half-anchov... Oh, man! I step out for a bit and I find a bare-knuckled barroom brawl going on in here! Even James had to leave! (by the way, Happy Birthday, James. Enjoy your steak!)
... and I thought I could be persnickity... looks like I lost my black belt in bellicose behavior.
parabeagle, that sounds like HR gobbledy gook, or is it mumbo jumbo (the name of a band in Reno). I get so confused filtering all of my operating decisions through the HR bureaucracy.x;-)
HR Dallas and McMellow do indeed have valid points, otherwise known simply as opinions. Although the various 'rooms' in the Forum are intended primarily to be arranged by subject area, I for one will not follow any sort of library rules that to enter one door you must put on one of the caps hanging on nails beside that door and conduct yourself strictly in accordance with the standards of that particular cap. OK, this room is for serious discussion only; and this one over here is like the funeral home, no laughing here; and the one down there, we can't have any banter or fun there; now this one way back here, it's reserved for spitballs and those cans of shooting, colored string.
Even the most serious business seminars should be laced occasionally with fun. Even the longest, most focused executive staff meetings, are more productive with a periodic interjection of the non-serious. I've not thought of the Forum as a place where one writes down a question and it goes through a tube to a room full of geeky pinheads with pocket-protectors and horn-rimmed glasses who chatter for a minute and then shoot back a sterile answer.
The Forum is many things, it seems. But I've never thought of it as, or found it to be, sterile and robotic. We ask questions, we get answers, we share, we have fun, we jab, we put bandaids on our own cuts, we teach, we learn, we grow, we gain alliances, we develop comraderie, we get our feelings hurt, we get praised, we become the dunce-of the-moment, we get silly, we get serious, we cry, we laugh, we help, we get help. And throughout the day, maybe partly because of The Forum, we do the best we can at our jobs. And at the end of the day, hopefully, we leave the job for a few hours knowing we've done right things, and we might even have had fun doing it. Just my humble opinion. Tell me if I'm 'wrong'.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-07-04 AT 01:36PM (CST)[/font][br][br]Don, you are exactly right.
Oftentimes, us HR types try to make the world black and white - we strive for absolute unequivocal fairness. Everybody gets the exact same treatment. We try to make sure that pie is divided up just perfectly. But, we also know, this is not a perfect world. There are gray areas. Humor will spill over into the serious sides of life - hence black humor, and seriousness will spill over into the humorous sides of life. Same here on this forum and any of the other fora you may participate on. The participants on this forum are a fount of knowledge and experience - much can be learned. It is also a relief from the drudgery of our jobs, the pick-me-up that even us HR people need. Both, are very valuable and assist each of us in our quest to add value to our respective employers.
Comments
The important point is how she is dealing with these requests...is she constructive and rational in making these requests? or is she being a pain in the but WHINER.
It seems to me that she is not being very constructive in dealing with her issues, which may largely be due to her stroke. If that's the case, mswild 31 seems to have the answer.
If someone claims a disability, all that paperwork is good. But lets keep that ADA ying yang out of the equation unless we have to deal with it. Responding to courteous, logical requests are something every employer should do. No need for HR mumbo jumbo crap to do that.
I don't call it HR mumbo jumbo crap. I like to think of it as a 'stay out of jail card'.
Your stay out of jail card becomes HR mumbo jumbo when its the only lifeline you cling to in doing your job.
Look back to the inquiry that I responded to. It asked why even deal with the noise and brightness. My response was phrased logically using good common business sense which, also, adhered to the law. Your response was HR mumbo jumbo. If you want mumbo jumbo, here ya go:
"Whereas traditional employment discrimination law is prohibitory, the ADA requires the employer to interact with the disabled individual to make an accommodation for those limitations. Further, the interactive process requires the employer to engage in a form of individualized bargaining with the employee.
Traditional employment discrimination cases only require the courts to apply the relatively objective standard of equality of treatment, a standard free of determinations of fairness. The ADA's "reasonable accommodation" standard is open-ended, subjective and allows–often requires–the fact-finder to judge the fairness of an employer's policies as applied to the disabled."
Does this get you excited? Is it makin' ya happy?
Wasnt' the bank already doing this? YES! Wasn't there other issues that needed to be dealt with other than this mumbo jumbo? YES!
Ever ask an electrician why the lights don't work? Instead of answering that the bulb is burned out, you may hear, "Light bulbs have a very simple structure. At the base, they have two metal contacts, which connect to the ends of an electrical circuit...blah, blah, blah."
What academic institution did you get your electrical engineering degree from?
I'm operating under the assumption that people who come to this site have access to the ADA. It appeared in this situation, that they were having a much more difficult time dealing with the behavior. Awww heck, what am I talking about. Who cares about behavior, I'm in HR, I'll stick with the mumbo jumbo.
HR Rule #1: Be a business person first.
If I need to define that, I'll be glad to.
Please see the updated message in my other reply. The Boy of Steel is tired and bored with this line of banter. It's time for my morning nap.
Don and SteelBoy actually agree, they just can't see it because they are so busy seeing who can pee on the hydrant last.
Giving up humanity? Are we suggesting that HR folk who are business leaders give up their humanity?
Don S...once again your reply is getting into the mumbo jumbo. I don't even recall referring to ADA paperwork. If I did, do we need to discuss how some companies document these things? I think you are fully up to speed on that and are knit picking the crap out of it.
My stance is this. Behave like business people. Don't cling to the mumbo jumbo. Have the mumbo jumbo in YOUR head as you engage people and situations so that you can keep your company out of trouble. You need to know about the mumbo jumbo and pay very close attention to it. But don't let it get in the way of being a business person. The legal issues that my organization faces are so few and far between because of simple, common sense BUSINESS practices...not HR mumbo jumbo. The organziation that uses the mumbo jumbo to deal with the issues is not a nice place to work.
If your primary job is to keep your company out of trouble, you're right on target. I focus my efforts on profitability...which just happens to keep the company out of trouble.
And I'll always copy and paste mumbo jumbo. I will never waste energy pulling it out of my head. Leaving that stuff in your head eats away at the important stuff. Please, no more accusations about lack of mumbo jumbo protocol and crappy details. Those things get done, but in a very different fashion.
Do you take offense to the term mumbo jumbo? How much time did you spend analyzing the reply to come up with this crafty little reply?
Very valuable stuff. I'm impressed.
If you want to reply in an impressive fashion, do as SMACE has done on the personnel file issue. He actually came up with real info that highlighted a careless reply on the behalf of SteelBoy. That's a valuable reply. Yours indicates defensiveness.
Please let's close this thread.
My .25cents
Others have been commenting on the harshness of your posts, I'm simply talking about that term being used over and over and over again, so relax.
Oh and it took me about 32 hours of analyzing to come up with the reply. Impressive, isn't it?
Again relax, I actully agree with part of what you were saying.
Next time, I'll investigate the state law and post as the very articulate SMACE has done.
The Boy of Steel will have to return on many a day to fight the senseless HR banter that gets in the way of really solving problems.
The bean counter who fails due to his inability to appropriately apply his/her beanie knowledge meets the same fate as the electrical engineer who cannot succinctly explain the lack of light...just as the HR person who cannot behave in a business world fails as their only weapon is a policy book and regs.
HR ying yang only when necessary and then as little as possible. Stop the insanity, stop the ying yang!!!
Cinderella
SteelBoy, welcome to the Forum. As one of the moderators, I need to tell you that there are rules of engagement for the Forum. Basically, we ask everyone to treat each other with basic respect and avoid personal attacks, just like in any other business setting.
[url]http://www.hrhero.com/employersforum/help4.shtml[/url]
I'm not saying you or anyone else crossed the line in this thread. Frankly, when there's this much give and take, I don't have the time or energy to sort it all out unless someone complains, or if we see something that clearly crosses the line.
That's all you'll hear from me for now because I'm leaving work. It's my birthday, and I'm dragging my daughter to a Japanese steak house. This discussion put me in the mood for some (mumbo) jumbo shrimp.
James Sokolowski
HRhero.com
It's nice to see that there is someone monitoring this as I come to this site for input, answers or general brainstorming - not to "listen" to such silly banter. While I think humor is wonderful, don't you offer Har-de-har for that? I thought this was a serious website with professionals responding to legitimate questions. Unfortunately in our area some issues may seem trivial, but those are often the ones that become a time bomb. I see HR as handling human issues with both professionalism & compassion.
However, we do joke around - to let off steam, have some fun, and keep things light (even James!). We're human, we work hard, and (especially) on Fridays we can get a little silly. I think it's healthy. Things can get off topic and threads can get pretty long. If you don't enjoy the jokes, silliness, etc. then don't read the threads that contain them.
Cinderella
... and I thought I could be persnickity... looks like I lost my black belt in bellicose behavior.
Okay, everyone go back to what they were doing.
Even the most serious business seminars should be laced occasionally with fun. Even the longest, most focused executive staff meetings, are more productive with a periodic interjection of the non-serious. I've not thought of the Forum as a place where one writes down a question and it goes through a tube to a room full of geeky pinheads with pocket-protectors and horn-rimmed glasses who chatter for a minute and then shoot back a sterile answer.
The Forum is many things, it seems. But I've never thought of it as, or found it to be, sterile and robotic. We ask questions, we get answers, we share, we have fun, we jab, we put bandaids on our own cuts, we teach, we learn, we grow, we gain alliances, we develop comraderie, we get our feelings hurt, we get praised, we become the dunce-of the-moment, we get silly, we get serious, we cry, we laugh, we help, we get help. And throughout the day, maybe partly because of The Forum, we do the best we can at our jobs. And at the end of the day, hopefully, we leave the job for a few hours knowing we've done right things, and we might even have had fun doing it. Just my humble opinion. Tell me if I'm 'wrong'.
Oftentimes, us HR types try to make the world black and white - we strive for absolute unequivocal fairness. Everybody gets the exact same treatment. We try to make sure that pie is divided up just perfectly. But, we also know, this is not a perfect world. There are gray areas. Humor will spill over into the serious sides of life - hence black humor, and seriousness will spill over into the humorous sides of life. Same here on this forum and any of the other fora you may participate on. The participants on this forum are a fount of knowledge and experience - much can be learned. It is also a relief from the drudgery of our jobs, the pick-me-up that even us HR people need. Both, are very valuable and assist each of us in our quest to add value to our respective employers.