Have been lurking on the forum for the last few months, thanks for all of your insight xhugs - I think I have an additional question to ask on this topic.
If we require the removal of the confederate flag because of what the symbol means to a protected class - and not in connection to a complaint (other than perhaps our own) do we also prohibit other symbols in the workplace that have, historically speaking, been offensive to a protected class, but have significant meaning for another employee?
My example here is the display or wearing of the pentatuch (5 pointed star, commonly associated with "satanism" by popular culture, but in historical practice a spiritual symbol for many pagans predating the middle ages)-there has been much talk about this item in my office, but no direct complaints yet -I'm loath to jump in with what I know (philosophy/religion minor)as I'm relatively new at this plant - and I'm not sure I have the right/obligation to ask the employee to stop wearing the item. The biggest problem is that I believe this will reflect in promotion/retention decisions from upper management toward this employee (we have a few "easily offended" individuals in upper management - staunch religious/political beliefs - the "everyone else is wrong" type) - so it would be in their best interest career wise to not offend, but it does appear that it would infringe on their right to free speech.
Should the symbol be prohibited, as it is recommended the flag should be, based on some of the arguments I've read here?
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-14-03 AT 10:51AM (CST)[/font][p]For the record, I'm not an advocate of proactive prohibition. My intention would be to counsel and recommend removal of personal objects IF they became controversial, keeping in mind people's need to express themselves and everyone's right to free speech and expression. The litmus test is if a personal item becomes disruptive to performance--there MUST be a business related need before I'd interfere, and controversy in the workplace that boils into disruption to production and performance is valid. Additionally, I wouldn't necessarily prohibit an object, but might require that it be kept out public display.
As additional insurance against such problems, it might be worth while including some sort of statement in policy that explains the organization's expectations regarding such things, and what employees might expect if problems arise.
As to the historical reality of the Bonny Blue... It is a Virginia flag widely copied throughout the South, but it has nothing whatever to do with the Texas Flag. Nada. The star in the center of the Bonny Blue represents Virginia as the preeminent Southern State. It does not represent Texas. Texas is represented by the Lone Star on the blue field of its own flag. Now, notwithstanding the vagueries of history, the Texas flag is a copy of the U.S. flag-- it has a blue field and one star, instead of a blue field with thirteen stars. It has one red stripe, and one white stripe because there was only one Texas and not thirteen colonies in Texas. The earliest supposed versions of a Texas flag were based on the Mexican flag, and had no Confederate symbolism whatsoever, especially since the Confederacy would not be born for another twenty-five years. The first Confederate national flag (the correct "Stars and Bars")was also a copy of the United States flag, hence the reason that the Confederacy stopped using it. Many Confederate soldiers attacked each other out of confusion, and so it was necessary to give greater exposure to the battle flag. This exposure included the creation of the second and third Confederate national flags, which include the symbol. The Texas flag has ninety-nine percent more to do with the U.S. flag than the Confederate flag. The other one percent is wholly incidental.
The creators of these flags knew what they were saying. The dark red on the battle flag represents the blood of their enemies. The crossed bars are a derivitive of the St. Andrew's cross, representing the Celtic traditions of the Confederacy. The white field of the second and third Confederate national flags represents, you guessed it, white supremacy. These are facts that cannot be denied. The acceptance of the battle flag by innocent Southerners who want to remember their ancestors does not mean that they agree with the messages that these flags were created to send. The vast majority of these people probably do not even know what the colors and symbols represent. They should not be held accountable for loyalty to their traditions, even though those traditions are somewhat offensive. Beyond that, the flag should not be displayed in the work environment. It is offensive to many African Americans for reasons relating to slavery, but how much more offensive is it when its whole meaning is known?
"There are a few well known people whose bank accounts are dependent on continually stirring the racial relations pot. It was not until those persons started chanting the ills of Civil War symbols that most people even gave a hoot about their display at statehouses, on car tags, on state flags and on bumper stickers."
Don, this statement is not worthy of you! If you have no "extra energy" around the confederate flag, that's okay with me. Your posts on this thread lead me to believe that you do, however. Please give those with an opposing view the same courtesy you are requesting. The confederate flag has been a contentious symbol for a very very long time. My opinion is that it has no place in the workplace. If I were an employee of a company that allowed it, they would lose a valuable resource -- me. Those people who find it hurtful and representative of a time not to be honored do not require anyone to stir a pot. History did that.
Don, please don't misunderstand: I am NOT one of those folks who think that only a racist would fly a Confederate flag. All I'm saying is that righly or wrongly it's a hot-button topic for people, and would most likely cause undue distractions in the work environment (certainly where I work). For that reason, and that reason alone, I would not allow it's display. The same would be true for an abortion poster. And I really do appreciate the history lesson in regard to the Texas State flag.
I live in Oklahoma. The confederate flag has been a very big issue here between those who have a great love of history and tradition and those who feel this is a racist symbol. The sad truth is that is can represent both. My son, who by the way is extremely proud to be able to document his ancestors to include Robert E. Lee, has spent a great deal of time working on the history and tradition side of this argument. The confederate union represents more than just slavery. In our state most of those supporting the confederacy did NOT own slaves. We have had great debates in Oklahoma in recent years regarding the wisdom of continuing to fly this flag at our capital. I say all of this to say that I have some personal experience with this subject and NOT as a racist. However, the question was asked in the original post about the work envirnment, not whether the flag represents racism. In the work environment, it is not appropriate to allow those items that cause upset and dissention. For that reason ONLY I would have it removed from the work enviroment. The same as I supported our school system from banning it from school (for which my son did not speak to me for a week). It gets in the way of getting the primary work objectives accomplished and it may cause other employees discomfort. That type of conflict is not appropriate in the work place. Your flag flyer can fly his flag at home....and I would visit.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-13-03 AT 03:04PM (CST)[/font][p] I believe an employer has the right to decide what is appropriate for the workplace as long as the decision is just and prudent.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-19-03 AT 11:19AM (CST)[/font][p]I tend to believe HR professionals are more enlightened and wise in workplace matters than the average employee. So it seems to me, based on the amount of time even we HR Managers have invested in this discussion, and the heightened emotional arousal so evident in this thread related to this specific subject, that our own passionate involvement loudly and clearly demonstrates that this is just the kind of time-consuming, emotionally disruptive issue we would do best to discourage/prevent, if at all possible, from erupting in our workplaces.
As for me and my house, the evidence speaks for itself!
I have refrained up until now from posting on this thread. Seeing all of the comments posted and the uproar it has seemingly created, has spurred me to post.
It is truly sad that in today's world, one has to be so careful about what they say or what they display and how it might or might not offend people. My humble opinion on this matter is...if you're worried it might offend, then don't allow it. But then you can't allow anything of a personal nature to be placed in any workspace. If you're not allowing one thing (the flag) because you THINK it might be offensive, then you can't allow another person to display anything because that might be offensive to someone else. Who's to say what will or won't be offensive, where do you draw the line? It's either that, or you allow the flag to be put up and then if someone finds it offensive, take it down. Maybe the person who wants to put it up likes the way it looks and doesn't know or care about what it stands for? Maybe to him/her it's art.
I think at some point, a decision needs to be made across the board at your company about what is or isn't allowable...and then stick to it. I think we've built a mountain out of a molehill here.
I'm not even going to comment on the topic itself. This horse is long dead. I just want to know- what happened to IWonder? Was a decision made about the flag? Like Don said earlier, IWonder has not posted anything since, but they have been on the Forum. Was this an employee trying to find some ammo to go to HR with? hmmmm....I wonder.
HRsage the horse is never dead because many AMERICANS are still battling racism on a daily basis. Please don't dismiss it like its a dead horse. Those same AMERICANS are in IRAQ now fighting for your safety.
DonD, back to my point! The issues, thoughts, meanings surrounding the confederate flag still exist today, this instance, this minute no matter where we go to war. Oh, by the way I don't think you watch the channels I watch.
easy Plano, back the truck up. You misunderstood my dead horse comment. This post is the dead horse. Not racism. It's become more of a "agree or disagree" post on the flag. The issue brought to the forum has not been resolved (that we know of) and that was my question. As far as our soldiers in the Mid East- I have nothing but the highest respect for them. If I was a few years younger, I'd be signing up right now. My family has a long history of proud military service, so I don't need to be lectured on that point. So again I ask- where's Iwonder? What was the outcome?
Wow. I just got back in town, and read this entire thread from the beginning. What a discussion!
Several of you know that I generally regard myself as one of the least PC members of the HR community. That notwithstanding, I am amazed at the extensive rationalizing some people will do in order to justify the flying of the Confederate flag. I love the revisionist history, and the claim that the flag represents soooo much more than the battle against racial equality.
What's next? A list of the "often-overlooked benefits" of cross burnings?
Thanks Terri! I was "up your way" visiting my folks. I returned home, without incident, through all that snow... then this morning couldn't get out of my own garage! I haven't shoveled that fast since I was 10 or 12!
I just want to know what the outcome at Iwonder's workplace was?! I'm curious why there has been no response from the original poster. I think this is odd.
The original question asked only '...whether an employee should have a right to display a small Confederate Flag in a corner of their work area and whether another person had a right not to feel harassed by that'. Now, some 818 views and 54 posts later, we find ourselves mired in debates of flags and a variety of historical representations. We've intelligently compared 'offended' to 'harassed'. We’ve drug ourselves through all the emotional possibilities and have witnessed accusations and the distortion and misstatement of facts. The poles of our spectrum are, on the one hand, gentle words encouraging tolerance of divergent views, and on the other, blind screams of racism. We even have a few unproductive mentionings of an orange Dodge from The Dukes Of Hazard, hangings and cross burnings. And what would this post be without someone adding visions of David Duke and Jesse Jackson, neither of whom I would hose-off if he were on fire. What we ultimately have is a hodgepodge of assumptions laced with speculations and personal conclusions, all equally important and valuable. Hopefully the exercise has been an educational one but that is to be decided individually. I can come away from it all willing to understand that there are indeed other views and being able to exist peacefully with those other views. The larger question is, can you, each of you?
My pipe dream is that some of these posters of what they call ‘history’ might be correctly informed or at least search to be a bit more accurate in their knowledge of history. Admittedly, the Forum cannot unwind a twisted sense of facts or presumptive portrayals of what might have been in the minds of men one hundred forty three years ago.
As to the claim that the Texas flag is a copied rendition of a Virginia flag; let’s look at correct history for a second. Pay attention and stay with me on this...When Lincoln's War Secretary called upon Virginia in 1861 to take up arms against The Confederate States, the Virginia Dominion’s response was to withdraw from the United States of America. On the 30th of April, 1861, days following that secession, a flag was adopted for The Independent Commonwealth of Virginia. Virginia’s banner IS the Bonnie Blue Flag with the star replaced by the seal of the Commonwealth, with the motto “Sic Semper Tyrannis” (Ever Thus to Tyrants). This motto had been adopted as Virginia’s response to monarchial tyranny in the 1770s and would now serve as her reply to aggression in the 1860s. This same flag, modified a bit, flies over Virginia today. Remember that date, 1861. It will serve my argument.
While it is true that the original Texas flag, 1824, was arguably a response to Santa Anna’s demands on Texans, Texas’ new 1836 flag contained one bold white star, described as “The Bonnie Blue Flag”, with letters spelling out the name “TEXAS” around and between the star’s points. Within months the flag was modified, omitting the lettering, and the Bonnie Blue Flag of the Republic of West Florida with a yellow (now white) star served as Texas’ national flag for several years. In 1839, The Republic of Texas further modified its flag to vertical bars and the lone star. The flag flew over Texas as its first Republic flag, then as the flag of the State under the US, and then as the flag of the state under the Confederate States of America. I post all of this simply to point out an earlier inaccurate portrayal of history by one of you with the screen name of BISD,TX. I draw your attention to the fact that all the dates in this paragraph preceed the date 1861; therefore showing you that is would have been impossible for Virginia's flag to predate those of Texas and the West Florida Territory.
It is true that of the several flags designed and recommended for adoption to fly over The Confederacy and in battle, some were quickly retired and a few were rejected. Primarily this was due to their resemblance to the flag flying over the opposing troops. Some rightfully claimed that a few designs too closely resembled The U.S.Flag. Both nations (and that's what they now were) were confused often by the similarity. The same would have been true had all the uniforms been of one color. Another flag was retired because when it rested, unfurled, too much white cloth showed and it resembled a surrender flag, further confusing troops and costing lives on both sides. Don’t try to read racial insensitivity into the decision to retire the flag containing 80% pure white color.
Battle flags exist now, and were designed and adopted throughout history, to identify and distinguish between and among groups of soldiers and to rally troops to bugle commands, NOT to send subliminal messages, as some of you suggest, of racist motivations and claims of racial superiority by the choice of flag colors.
Regarding the non-historical assertion that the white portions of flags, (quoting from the earlier post).. “Represented, you guessed it, white supremacy,” I cannot help wondering what historical text you found that ‘fact’ in. Is it perhaps a modern day conclusion? It certainly has no basis in fact or history. Might you also conclude that the white Roman cross on Missouri’s Battle Flag, the white stars on the 1861 Cherokee National Flag and the white bow, arrows and tomahawk on the Confederate Indian Choctaw Brigade battle flag also represent white supremacy? The latter two were flags of Indian peoples, not whites.
Finally, the disrespectful and rhetorical conclusion that Southerners might not even know what the colors of flags represented and that they are somehow deluded into misguided conclusions about (what we call) The War of Northern Aggression, I invite one and all to spend fourteen dollars on “The Flags of the Confederacy”, an illustrated history, by Devereaux D. Cannon, Jr., a Tennessee attorney, Pelican Publishing, 1101 Monroe Street, Gretna, LA. “The lst word on the flags of the cause”, The Wall Street Journal; “Very clearly explains the origins and development of the national flags of the Confederacy and does an excellent job on the state flags as well”, Gary Gallagher, University of North Carolina Press; “A welcome, objective history”, The Journal of Confederate History.
I have said throughout that I can accept, understand and sympathize with the total number of opinions that have been displayed throughout this discussion. I even understand that there are many among us who have been afraid for one reason or another to register an opinion. What I find difficult is understanding those who have little ability to reason, an apparent inability to accept other opinions, and a venemous clamour and sound-bite-spitting-forth of what seem to be hateful opinions and conclusions about peoples and regions. Any one of you is invited to my house for steak and cold beer Friday night.
Oh boy, Woco Frank, you've asked for it now. I can just picture people huffing and puffing over that post. I couldn't even make a dead horse comment without offending someone. This whole post got me thinking about one of my favorite shows from the 70's. Dukes of Hazard- "They're just some good ol' boys. Never meaning no harm..." They had the flag on their car- I never thought of them as racist. But that's just me. Iwonder- where are you? Should we send out a search party?
I would not want to chance someone like BISD knowing the history of the flag and the colors that it represents seeing it in the work place. After you've been educated on EACH color of the flag then it no longer becomes of symbol of "what ever I want it to be" but a symbol of what the creaters of the flag intended the flag to mean.
If we were talking about the swastika this thread would've been dead long ago. But the history of the swastika has nothing to do with Hitler and the Third Reich. Therefor someone COULD say they'd want to attach any meaning they want to the swastika and plant it somewere in the work place.
To that ONE (or even some) person(s) the swastika could have its original meaning. But to many people the swastika means something a lot more dalitarious. The fact that the history of the Confederate flag represents to racism to many people then it definantly should be left out of the workplace.
The original question asked only '...whether an employee should have a right to display a small Confederate Flag in a corner of their work area and whether another person had a right not to feel harassed by that'. Now, some 818 views and 54 posts later, we find ourselves mired in debates of flags and a variety of historical representations. We've intelligently compared 'offended' to 'harassed'. We’ve drug ourselves through all the emotional possibilities and have witnessed accusations and the distortion and misstatement of facts. The poles of our spectrum are, on the one hand, gentle words encouraging tolerance of divergent views, and on the other, blind screams of racism. We even have a few unproductive mentionings of an orange Dodge from The Dukes Of Hazard, hangings and cross burnings. And what would this post be without someone adding visions of David Duke and Jesse Jackson, neither of whom I would hose-off if he were on fire. What we ultimately have is a hodgepodge of assumptions laced with speculations and personal conclusions, all equally important and valuable. Hopefully the exercise has been an educational one but that is to be decided individually. I can come away from it all willing to understand that there are indeed other views and being able to exist peacefully with those other views. The larger question is, can you, each of you? My pipe dream is that some of these posters of what they call ‘history’ might be correctly informed or at least search to be a bit more accurate in their knowledge of history. Admittedly, the Forum cannot unwind a twisted sense of facts or presumptive portrayals of what might have been in the minds of men one hundred forty three years ago.
As to the claim that the Texas flag is a copied rendition of a Virginia flag; let’s look at correct history for a second. Pay attention and stay with me on this...When Lincoln's War Secretary called upon Virginia in 1861 to take up arms against The Confederate States, the Virginia Dominion’s response was to withdraw from the United States of America. On the 30th of April, 1861, days following that secession, a flag was adopted for The Independent Commonwealth of Virginia. Virginia’s banner IS the Bonnie Blue Flag with the star replaced by the seal of the Commonwealth, with the motto “Sic Semper Tyrannis” (Ever Thus to Tyrants). This motto had been adopted as Virginia’s response to monarchial tyranny in the 1770s and would now serve as her reply to aggression in the 1860s. This same flag, modified a bit, flies over Virginia today. Remember that date, 1861. It will serve my argument.
While it is true that the original Texas flag, 1824, was arguably a response to Santa Anna’s demands on Texans, Texas’ new 1836 flag contained one bold white star, described as “The Bonnie Blue Flag”, with letters spelling out the name “TEXAS” around and between the star’s points. Within months the flag was modified, omitting the lettering, and the Bonnie Blue Flag of the Republic of West Florida with a yellow (now white) star served as Texas’ national flag for several years. In 1839, The Republic of Texas further modified its flag to vertical bars and the lone star. The flag flew over Texas as its first Republic flag, then as the flag of the State under the US, and then as the flag of the state under the Confederate States of America. I post all of this simply to point out an earlier inaccurate portrayal of history by one of you with the screen name of BISD,TX. I draw your attention to the fact that all the dates in this paragraph preceed the date 1861; therefore showing you that is would have been impossible for Virginia's flag to predate those of Texas and the West Florida Territory.
It is true that of the several flags designed and recommended for adoption to fly over The Confederacy and in battle, some were quickly retired and a few were rejected. Primarily this was due to their resemblance to the flag flying over the opposing troops. Some rightfully claimed that a few designs too closely resembled The U.S.Flag. Both nations (and that's what they now were) were confused often by the similarity. The same would have been true had all the uniforms been of one color. Another flag was retired because when it rested, unfurled, too much white cloth showed and it resembled a surrender flag, further confusing troops and costing lives on both sides. Don’t try to read racial insensitivity into the decision to retire the flag containing 80% pure white color.
Battle flags exist now, and were designed and adopted throughout history, to identify and distinguish between and among groups of soldiers and to rally troops to bugle commands, NOT to send subliminal messages, as some of you suggest, of racist motivations and claims of racial superiority by the choice of flag colors.
Regarding the non-historical assertion that the white portions of flags, (quoting from the earlier post).. “Represented, you guessed it, white supremacy,” I cannot help wondering what historical text you found that ‘fact’ in. Is it perhaps a modern day conclusion? It certainly has no basis in fact or history. Might you also conclude that the white Roman cross on Missouri’s Battle Flag, the white stars on the 1861 Cherokee National Flag and the white bow, arrows and tomahawk on the Confederate Indian Choctaw Brigade battle flag also represent white supremacy? The latter two were flags of Indian peoples, not whites.
Finally, the disrespectful and rhetorical conclusion that Southerners might not even know what the colors of flags represented and that they are somehow deluded into misguided conclusions about (what we call) The War of Northern Aggression, I invite one and all to spend fourteen dollars on “The Flags of the Confederacy”, an illustrated history, by Devereaux D. Cannon, Jr., a Tennessee attorney, Pelican Publishing, 1101 Monroe Street, Gretna, LA. “The lst word on the flags of the cause”, The Wall Street Journal; “Very clearly explains the origins and development of the national flags of the Confederacy and does an excellent job on the state flags as well”, Gary Gallagher, University of North Carolina Press; “A welcome, objective history”, The Journal of Confederate History.
I have said throughout that I can accept, understand and sympathize with the total number of opinions that have been displayed throughout this discussion. I even understand that there are many among us who have been afraid for one reason or another to register an opinion. What I find difficult is understanding those who have little ability to reason, an apparent inability to accept other opinions, and a venemous clamour and sound-bite-spitting-forth of what seem to be hateful opinions and conclusions about peoples and regions. Any one of you is invited to my house for steak and cold beer Friday night.
Wow. I started reading this last week and just finished today! There have been strings with more posts, but certainly none which have provoked such lengthy responses and arguments.
Just a thought - isn't offensive something that a reasonable person would find so? Therefore, among these 50 plus posts there are enough, I believe, reasonable persons who find the flag offensive to what they perceive it means. And perception, after all, is reality.
Trust me on this one, Leslie: The "reasonable person" standard doesn't apply (or seem to) anymore. Just the fact that an UNreasonable person finds something offensive is enough to get you in front of a judge. But I'm not bitter! x;-)
That sounds like quite the story in and of itself. I know what you're saying, but a re-read of these postings show that reasonable people are getting offended on both sides of the issue. So, putting it on display on your personal property - maybe. Not in an office when it can cause all this uproar among HR professionals. :-?
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-18-03 AT 06:20PM (CST)[/font][p]I read many of the posts, and maybe skimmed a few other. Based upon what I ead, I think people have missed wht the Confederate Flag really represents in contemporary America.
It's a political statement. It's saying America is too federalistic and states' rights have to prevail. It's saying America is too liberal and conservative values that existed in the Confederacy have to prevail.
It should be banned as all open flags representing various nations and governments, as political messages, should be banned from the workplace. We wouldn't allow political posters, or posters supportin abortiong or anti-abortion positions to be in the work place. We wouldn't allow signs supporting the current Administrtion's position in attacking Iraq or signs opposing it to be posted in the workplace.
It's not a pure question of harassment (although it may come into play). It is a question of politicial statement, which as Theresa noted, doesn't have a right to be presented in the private sector workplace.
Once the issue is addressed as a political statement--or perceived as a political statement--then it becomes clear what must be done. You won't resolve anything by arguing over whether the Confederate flag is racially harassing.
Friends: I won't post again to this one (promise). What I really find objectionable is that AFTER we all agreed that the symbol can be offensive to some but not to others and we all had a chance to post what we believe the history is, and all had a reasonable chance to express how we feel about the subject (even though we strayed from the question), and we each had a chance to accept, reject or live with other opinions, and reasonably concluded that the flag should not be in the workplace for those reasons, we laced the debate with the arsenic of calling people with different opinions cross-burning, lynching, uncaring racists. And that is offensive to me. That 'closet' mentality does not belong in Human Resources.
Comments
If we require the removal of the confederate flag because of what the symbol means to a protected class - and not in connection to a complaint (other than perhaps our own) do we also prohibit other symbols in the workplace that have, historically speaking, been offensive to a protected class, but have significant meaning for another employee?
My example here is the display or wearing of the pentatuch (5 pointed star, commonly associated with "satanism" by popular culture, but in historical practice a spiritual symbol for many pagans predating the middle ages)-there has been much talk about this item in my office, but no direct complaints yet -I'm loath to jump in with what I know (philosophy/religion minor)as I'm relatively new at this plant - and I'm not sure I have the right/obligation to ask the employee to stop wearing the item. The biggest problem is that I believe this will reflect in promotion/retention decisions from upper management toward this employee (we have a few "easily offended" individuals in upper management - staunch religious/political beliefs - the "everyone else is wrong" type) - so it would be in their best interest career wise to not offend, but it does appear that it would infringe on their right to free speech.
Should the symbol be prohibited, as it is recommended the flag should be, based on some of the arguments I've read here?
Any grand comments? I'm at much of a loss here.
ladyz - hrqueen, glass fabrication industry
As additional insurance against such problems, it might be worth while including some sort of statement in policy that explains the organization's expectations regarding such things, and what employees might expect if problems arise.
And, as an afterthought:
I too,
still do wonder
where Iwonder
went!
The creators of these flags knew what they were saying. The dark red on the battle flag represents the blood of their enemies. The crossed bars are a derivitive of the St. Andrew's cross, representing the Celtic traditions of the Confederacy. The white field of the second and third Confederate national flags represents, you guessed it, white supremacy. These are facts that cannot be denied. The acceptance of the battle flag by innocent Southerners who want to remember their ancestors does not mean that they agree with the messages that these flags were created to send. The vast majority of these people probably do not even know what the colors and symbols represent. They should not be held accountable for loyalty to their traditions, even though those traditions are somewhat offensive. Beyond that, the flag should not be displayed in the work environment. It is offensive to many African Americans for reasons relating to slavery, but how much more offensive is it when its whole meaning is known?
Don, this statement is not worthy of you! If you have no "extra energy" around the confederate flag, that's okay with me. Your posts on this thread lead me to believe that you do, however. Please give those with an opposing view the same courtesy you are requesting. The confederate flag has been a contentious symbol for a very very long time. My opinion is that it has no place in the workplace. If I were an employee of a company that allowed it, they would lose a valuable resource -- me. Those people who find it hurtful and representative of a time not to be honored do not require anyone to stir a pot. History did that.
However, the question was asked in the original post about the work envirnment, not whether the flag represents racism. In the work environment, it is not appropriate to allow those items that cause upset and dissention. For that reason ONLY I would have it removed from the work enviroment. The same as I supported our school system from banning it from school (for which my son did not speak to me for a week). It gets in the way of getting the primary work objectives accomplished and it may cause other employees discomfort. That type of conflict is not appropriate in the work place. Your flag flyer can fly his flag at home....and I would visit.
I believe an employer has the right to decide what is appropriate for the workplace as long as the decision is just and prudent.
As for me and my house, the evidence speaks for itself!
It is truly sad that in today's world, one has to be so careful about what they say or what they display and how it might or might not offend people. My humble opinion on this matter is...if you're worried it might offend, then don't allow it. But then you can't allow anything of a personal nature to be placed in any workspace. If you're not allowing one thing (the flag) because you THINK it might be offensive, then you can't allow another person to display anything because that might be offensive to someone else. Who's to say what will or won't be offensive, where do you draw the line? It's either that, or you allow the flag to be put up and then if someone finds it offensive, take it down. Maybe the person who wants to put it up likes the way it looks and doesn't know or care about what it stands for? Maybe to him/her it's art.
I think at some point, a decision needs to be made across the board at your company about what is or isn't allowable...and then stick to it. I think we've built a mountain out of a molehill here.
Now back to NASCAR...
Was a decision made about the flag? Like Don said earlier, IWonder has not posted anything since, but they have been on the Forum.
Was this an employee trying to find some ammo to go to HR with?
hmmmm....I wonder.
As far as our soldiers in the Mid East- I have nothing but the highest respect for them. If I was a few years younger, I'd be signing up right now. My family has a long history of proud military service, so I don't need to be lectured on that point.
So again I ask- where's Iwonder? What was the outcome?
Where is the right not to be offended in the consitution? I missed it.
We, as a society, have become waaaaaay too touchy.
Several of you know that I generally regard myself as one of the least PC members of the HR community. That notwithstanding, I am amazed at the extensive rationalizing some people will do in order to justify the flying of the Confederate flag. I love the revisionist history, and the claim that the flag represents soooo much more than the battle against racial equality.
What's next? A list of the "often-overlooked benefits" of cross burnings?
All those years I lived in Texas and missed this. What a shame.
I'm curious why there has been no response from the original poster.
I think this is odd.
My pipe dream is that some of these posters of what they call ‘history’ might be correctly informed or at least search to be a bit more accurate in their knowledge of history. Admittedly, the Forum cannot unwind a twisted sense of facts or presumptive portrayals of what might have been in the minds of men one hundred forty three years ago.
As to the claim that the Texas flag is a copied rendition of a Virginia flag; let’s look at correct history for a second. Pay attention and stay with me on this...When Lincoln's War Secretary called upon Virginia in 1861 to take up arms against The Confederate States, the Virginia Dominion’s response was to withdraw from the United States of America. On the 30th of April, 1861, days following that secession, a flag was adopted for The Independent Commonwealth of Virginia. Virginia’s banner IS the Bonnie Blue Flag with the star replaced by the seal of the Commonwealth, with the motto “Sic Semper Tyrannis” (Ever Thus to Tyrants). This motto had been adopted as Virginia’s response to monarchial tyranny in the 1770s and would now serve as her reply to aggression in the 1860s. This same flag, modified a bit, flies over Virginia today. Remember that date, 1861. It will serve my argument.
While it is true that the original Texas flag, 1824, was arguably a response to Santa Anna’s demands on Texans, Texas’ new 1836 flag contained one bold white star, described as “The Bonnie Blue Flag”, with letters spelling out the name “TEXAS” around and between the star’s points. Within months the flag was modified, omitting the lettering, and the Bonnie Blue Flag of the Republic of West Florida with a yellow (now white) star served as Texas’ national flag for several years. In 1839, The Republic of Texas further modified its flag to vertical bars and the lone star. The flag flew over Texas as its first Republic flag, then as the flag of the State under the US, and then as the flag of the state under the Confederate States of America. I post all of this simply to point out an earlier inaccurate portrayal of history by one of you with the screen name of BISD,TX. I draw your attention to the fact that all the dates in this paragraph preceed the date 1861; therefore showing you that is would have been impossible for Virginia's flag to predate those of Texas and the West Florida Territory.
It is true that of the several flags designed and recommended for adoption to fly over The Confederacy and in battle, some were quickly retired and a few were rejected. Primarily this was due to their resemblance to the flag flying over the opposing troops. Some rightfully claimed that a few designs too closely resembled The U.S.Flag. Both nations (and that's what they now were) were confused often by the similarity. The same would have been true had all the uniforms been of one color. Another flag was retired because when it rested, unfurled, too much white cloth showed and it resembled a surrender flag, further confusing troops and costing lives on both sides. Don’t try to read racial insensitivity into the decision to retire the flag containing 80% pure white color.
Battle flags exist now, and were designed and adopted throughout history, to identify and distinguish between and among groups of soldiers and to rally troops to bugle commands, NOT to send subliminal messages, as some of you suggest, of racist motivations and claims of racial superiority by the choice of flag colors.
Regarding the non-historical assertion that the white portions of flags, (quoting from the earlier post).. “Represented, you guessed it, white supremacy,” I cannot help wondering what historical text you found that ‘fact’ in. Is it perhaps a modern day conclusion? It certainly has no basis in fact or history. Might you also conclude that the white Roman cross on Missouri’s Battle Flag, the white stars on the 1861 Cherokee National Flag and the white bow, arrows and tomahawk on the Confederate Indian Choctaw Brigade battle flag also represent white supremacy? The latter two were flags of Indian peoples, not whites.
Finally, the disrespectful and rhetorical conclusion that Southerners might not even know what the colors of flags represented and that they are somehow deluded into misguided conclusions about (what we call) The War of Northern Aggression, I invite one and all to spend fourteen dollars on “The Flags of the Confederacy”, an illustrated history, by Devereaux D. Cannon, Jr., a Tennessee attorney, Pelican Publishing, 1101 Monroe Street, Gretna, LA. “The lst word on the flags of the cause”, The Wall Street Journal; “Very clearly explains the origins and development of the national flags of the Confederacy and does an excellent job on the state flags as well”, Gary Gallagher, University of North Carolina Press; “A welcome, objective history”, The Journal of Confederate History.
I have said throughout that I can accept, understand and sympathize with the total number of opinions that have been displayed throughout this discussion. I even understand that there are many among us who have been afraid for one reason or another to register an opinion. What I find difficult is understanding those who have little ability to reason, an apparent inability to accept other opinions, and a venemous clamour and sound-bite-spitting-forth of what seem to be hateful opinions and conclusions about peoples and regions. Any one of you is invited to my house for steak and cold beer Friday night.
This whole post got me thinking about one of my favorite shows from the 70's. Dukes of Hazard- "They're just some good ol' boys. Never meaning no harm..." They had the flag on their car- I never thought of them as racist. But that's just me.
Iwonder- where are you? Should we send out a search party?
If we were talking about the swastika this thread would've been dead long ago. But the history of the swastika has nothing to do with Hitler and the Third Reich. Therefor someone COULD say they'd want to attach any meaning they want to the swastika and plant it somewere in the work place.
To that ONE (or even some) person(s) the swastika could have its original meaning. But to many people the swastika means something a lot more dalitarious. The fact that the history of the Confederate flag represents to racism to many people then it definantly should be left out of the workplace.
Just my two cents
My pipe dream is that some of these posters of what they call ‘history’ might be correctly informed or at least search to be a bit more accurate in their knowledge of history. Admittedly, the Forum cannot unwind a twisted sense of facts or presumptive portrayals of what might have been in the minds of men one hundred forty three years ago.
As to the claim that the Texas flag is a copied rendition of a Virginia flag; let’s look at correct history for a second. Pay attention and stay with me on this...When Lincoln's War Secretary called upon Virginia in 1861 to take up arms against The Confederate States, the Virginia Dominion’s response was to withdraw from the United States of America. On the 30th of April, 1861, days following that secession, a flag was adopted for The Independent Commonwealth of Virginia. Virginia’s banner IS the Bonnie Blue Flag with the star replaced by the seal of the Commonwealth, with the motto “Sic Semper Tyrannis” (Ever Thus to Tyrants). This motto had been adopted as Virginia’s response to monarchial tyranny in the 1770s and would now serve as her reply to aggression in the 1860s. This same flag, modified a bit, flies over Virginia today. Remember that date, 1861. It will serve my argument.
While it is true that the original Texas flag, 1824, was arguably a response to Santa Anna’s demands on Texans, Texas’ new 1836 flag contained one bold white star, described as “The Bonnie Blue Flag”, with letters spelling out the name “TEXAS” around and between the star’s points. Within months the flag was modified, omitting the lettering, and the Bonnie Blue Flag of the Republic of West Florida with a yellow (now white) star served as Texas’ national flag for several years. In 1839, The Republic of Texas further modified its flag to vertical bars and the lone star. The flag flew over Texas as its first Republic flag, then as the flag of the State under the US, and then as the flag of the state under the Confederate States of America. I post all of this simply to point out an earlier inaccurate portrayal of history by one of you with the screen name of BISD,TX. I draw your attention to the fact that all the dates in this paragraph preceed the date 1861; therefore showing you that is would have been impossible for Virginia's flag to predate those of Texas and the West Florida Territory.
It is true that of the several flags designed and recommended for adoption to fly over The Confederacy and in battle, some were quickly retired and a few were rejected. Primarily this was due to their resemblance to the flag flying over the opposing troops. Some rightfully claimed that a few designs too closely resembled The U.S.Flag. Both nations (and that's what they now were) were confused often by the similarity. The same would have been true had all the uniforms been of one color. Another flag was retired because when it rested, unfurled, too much white cloth showed and it resembled a surrender flag, further confusing troops and costing lives on both sides. Don’t try to read racial insensitivity into the decision to retire the flag containing 80% pure white color.
Battle flags exist now, and were designed and adopted throughout history, to identify and distinguish between and among groups of soldiers and to rally troops to bugle commands, NOT to send subliminal messages, as some of you suggest, of racist motivations and claims of racial superiority by the choice of flag colors.
Regarding the non-historical assertion that the white portions of flags, (quoting from the earlier post).. “Represented, you guessed it, white supremacy,” I cannot help wondering what historical text you found that ‘fact’ in. Is it perhaps a modern day conclusion? It certainly has no basis in fact or history. Might you also conclude that the white Roman cross on Missouri’s Battle Flag, the white stars on the 1861 Cherokee National Flag and the white bow, arrows and tomahawk on the Confederate Indian Choctaw Brigade battle flag also represent white supremacy? The latter two were flags of Indian peoples, not whites.
Finally, the disrespectful and rhetorical conclusion that Southerners might not even know what the colors of flags represented and that they are somehow deluded into misguided conclusions about (what we call) The War of Northern Aggression, I invite one and all to spend fourteen dollars on “The Flags of the Confederacy”, an illustrated history, by Devereaux D. Cannon, Jr., a Tennessee attorney, Pelican Publishing, 1101 Monroe Street, Gretna, LA. “The lst word on the flags of the cause”, The Wall Street Journal; “Very clearly explains the origins and development of the national flags of the Confederacy and does an excellent job on the state flags as well”, Gary Gallagher, University of North Carolina Press; “A welcome, objective history”, The Journal of Confederate History.
I have said throughout that I can accept, understand and sympathize with the total number of opinions that have been displayed throughout this discussion. I even understand that there are many among us who have been afraid for one reason or another to register an opinion. What I find difficult is understanding those who have little ability to reason, an apparent inability to accept other opinions, and a venemous clamour and sound-bite-spitting-forth of what seem to be hateful opinions and conclusions about peoples and regions. Any one of you is invited to my house for steak and cold beer Friday night.
Just a thought - isn't offensive something that a reasonable person would find so? Therefore, among these 50 plus posts there are enough, I believe, reasonable persons who find the flag offensive to what they perceive it means. And perception, after all, is reality.
It's a political statement. It's saying America is too federalistic and states' rights have to prevail. It's saying America is too liberal and conservative values that existed in the Confederacy have to prevail.
It should be banned as all open flags representing various nations and governments, as political messages, should be banned from the workplace. We wouldn't allow political posters, or posters supportin abortiong or anti-abortion positions to be in the work place. We wouldn't allow signs supporting the current Administrtion's position in attacking Iraq or signs opposing it to be posted in the workplace.
It's not a pure question of harassment (although it may come into play). It is a question of politicial statement, which as Theresa noted, doesn't have a right to be presented in the private sector workplace.
Once the issue is addressed as a political statement--or perceived as a political statement--then it becomes clear what must be done. You won't resolve anything by arguing over whether the Confederate flag is racially harassing.