Additionally, I find your reference above to born again Christians offensive. A simple search reveals that Mark Chapman, though claiming to be a born again Christian at 16, also was a drug addict from the age of 14 and psychotic. His horrible act was done not as a result of any Christian teaching, but as a result of his mental problems. He was strongly influenced by the book, Catcher in the Rye. J D Salinger would not be considered a Christian writer; and definitely not of the born again stripe. So, to equate a group of Christians with terrorists based on one mentally ill individual is completely without merit. You are setting up a straw man argument.
They are all straw man arguments. That is my point. Any time I see any reference to 9/11, it's almost certain to be connected to some totally illogical, irrational, and hateful rationalization of values that are - at their very core - against what America once stood for.
So, somehow it is more sensible to be outraged by a company giving hundreds of Somali refugees a holiday because a few Saudis flew planes into the World Trade Center? I don't think so.
BTW, I am a born-again Christian. I don't consider myself to be much like Mark David Chapman at all. I would also bet that most of those Somali refugees in the Tyson plant don't consider themselves to be much like Osama Bin Laden. Unfortunately, many Americans will deny them that distinction.
Yes, we saw several poor arguments on John's blog on the subject. But, I think it goes much beyond 9/11, that was when we came of age, so to speak. America was hit with terrorism, a terrorism that has been experienced elsewhere and is still being experienced. It isn't just the 9/11 act, it is the response and the reaction. It is what is continuing today. Many Muslim Americans refused to condemn 9/11 and went so far as to say we deserved it. Many worldwide still claim we deserved it. It wasn't just the acts of one or two deranged individuals, it was the concerted effort of a large group of people who share a particularly troubling belief system. That belief is shared my millions across the world.
People like myself see what is happening in Europe and in Canada and we fear the US may someday travel the same road with significant changes to our culture. A radical departure from what we have stood for. At the same time, I just as strongly oppose other internal changes to our core values, but that is a whole nother argument.
The point in Tyson's case is that the goal could have been achieved in another way without appearing to have been a mere act of appeasement. I believe that is what we are saying here. No one is saying the Muslims should be forced to work. I don't force our Muslim ee's to work on the holy days they desire off.
But, stepping back, there is a bit of humor in this discussion. We as a group of HR professionals oppose unions. Labor Day is a holiday associated with unions. We are arguing for a union holiday.
Man, that John Phillips is a bomb thrower. Where did he run off to?
And props to Frank and Ray for a fairly dignified argument.
Personally I think alot of these discussions are about "culture" not race or religion or sexual orientation. If you go back about 50 years, America had a more unified culture. The culture happened to be anglo and protestant at its roots. Certainly other cultures existed here but they were more distinct and generally viewed with some suspicion ("eye-talians, etc).
For better or for worse, America cherished this culture (even though looking back there were major problems). No culture is perfect. Every one has its positive and negative qualities.
Over the next few decades, people and ideas began to change and it eroded the culture in the sense that it was less consistent and unified. You couldnt just say "well, he's a christian man so of course we should hire him. he's trustworthy." The government began to force cultural integration through policy.
I think the end result has been positive. There is greater equality in our society now than ever before. We try (not always successfully) to treat people as individuals and not based on their gender, color of skin, religion, etc. This has led to many positive changes in our country.
The struggle though is that we are seeing our culture erode and a new one emerge. Not everyone likes the new one. We liked things the way they were. Mom, flag, and apple pie. Norman Rockwell. Much of that may be nostalgia but nostalgia is part of culture.
Tysons decision offends our sense of culture. On a surface level Tyson has replaced a cherished part of our American calendar with a strange and foreign holiday. All to appease a group of people that, at best, we barely understand. Lets be honest. How many of us know what it is to be a Somali refugee living in a foreign country packing chicken? I dont.
so if a small nod to a group's culture (not religion) is a welcomed accommodation, perhaps we all should be more accepting of that. On the other hand, Tyson cannot afford to appear to be casually tossing Labor Day to the curb. Thats a mistake. A cultural mistake.
I wish we could discuss these topics in light of culture and without the heat and emotion that religion, politics, and race bring. I also wish we could be more honest about how we feel without being labeled a bigot. I think the majority of racial discussions are disengenuous. We tend to like our own and we are generally less comfortable with people whose customs and culture are different. Its just reality. Almost every culture I have heard of discriminates. Its part of our DNA.
If we cant talk honestly, thats when problems really start. Frustration mounts and people act out of anger.
Personally I am glad. I believe it is good to honor diversity, but the contract the union and Tyson agreed to didn't really do that. It put a particular religious sect first. Even if the majority of the employees belong to that sect, you cannot assume it will stay that way, or that non-sect employees will be happy about it. As previously posted, a day for religious observance that anyone can use for their personal purpose is much more appropriate (even an athiest can take a day to celebrate his/her athiesm.)
Let's hope the door is shut and stays that way. Otherwise we will have the clamor of many people of various beliefs demanding that we acknowlege their beliefs too.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-08-08 AT 03:59PM (CST)[/font][br][br]There's no assumption that anything will stay any way. If circumstances change, the union is free to request a change at the next contract negotiation in a few years. There was also no assumption that non-sect employees will be happy about it - before the contract was ratified it went to an employee vote, and 80% were in favor.
Also, the reason this date was made a holiday in particular was because on this date so many people would take the day off as one of their personal days that management actually preferred to have it be an official holiday (see the NY Times article I linked to earlier). So the "random day off for whatever reason" thing wasn't preferable for Tyson.
Sorry Kimberly, I don't buy that. Worst case is that the 80% use their floater on that religious holiday and the other 20% use theirs on the traditional Labor Day. But, from the numbers listed, it would have been a more even split, depending on which article you use, the number of Muslims at the plant numbered at most about half. It may not have been preferable because Tyson management feared retaliation if they didn't give in. I see it more as political correctness gone awry.
There have been some remarkably well written posts on this subject, you are all to be commended. But I don't recall reading the reason it ever became an issue, that being that the union presented it in their negotiations to renew the plant's labor agreement. Even though the labor agreement was accepted with the Muslim holiday, it appears the union and the company were heavily pressured to reopen the negotiations and change the language. There is a lot of give and take in negotiations but I would guess neither party anticipated the level of bad press they would receive. Having previously worked in the food industry it is necessary to anticipate when your workforce may want to take days off. In parts of West Texas, the first day of pheasant season is a scheduled off day even though it isn't necessarily a holiday. As the Hispanic population increased it was logical to observe Cinco de Mayo as a nonproduction day because we knew many people would not come in, especially the evening shifts. With a floating holiday or personal holiday it allowed those employees who planned ahead to take the day and receive pay without any hint of favoritism for one nationality or religion over another. Would Tyson and the union received the same degree of criticism if was a Christian or Jewish holiday/holyday? Likely not except from the ACLU. But there is still seriously hard feelings, likely because of fear or lack of trust, against Muslims in general. And the news around the world about terrorists attacks and innocent people being killed stokes these feelings.
Comments
So, somehow it is more sensible to be outraged by a company giving hundreds of Somali refugees a holiday because a few Saudis flew planes into the World Trade Center? I don't think so.
BTW, I am a born-again Christian. I don't consider myself to be much like Mark David Chapman at all. I would also bet that most of those Somali refugees in the Tyson plant don't consider themselves to be much like Osama Bin Laden. Unfortunately, many Americans will deny them that distinction.
People like myself see what is happening in Europe and in Canada and we fear the US may someday travel the same road with significant changes to our culture. A radical departure from what we have stood for. At the same time, I just as strongly oppose other internal changes to our core values, but that is a whole nother argument.
The point in Tyson's case is that the goal could have been achieved in another way without appearing to have been a mere act of appeasement. I believe that is what we are saying here. No one is saying the Muslims should be forced to work. I don't force our Muslim ee's to work on the holy days they desire off.
But, stepping back, there is a bit of humor in this discussion. We as a group of HR professionals oppose unions. Labor Day is a holiday associated with unions. We are arguing for a union holiday.
Marina, I think you dragged me into this.
And I agree with you: no chador for me. !!!
And props to Frank and Ray for a fairly dignified argument.
Personally I think alot of these discussions are about "culture" not race or religion or sexual orientation. If you go back about 50 years, America had a more unified culture. The culture happened to be anglo and protestant at its roots. Certainly other cultures existed here but they were more distinct and generally viewed with some suspicion ("eye-talians, etc).
For better or for worse, America cherished this culture (even though looking back there were major problems). No culture is perfect. Every one has its positive and negative qualities.
Over the next few decades, people and ideas began to change and it eroded the culture in the sense that it was less consistent and unified. You couldnt just say "well, he's a christian man so of course we should hire him. he's trustworthy." The government began to force cultural integration through policy.
I think the end result has been positive. There is greater equality in our society now than ever before. We try (not always successfully) to treat people as individuals and not based on their gender, color of skin, religion, etc. This has led to many positive changes in our country.
The struggle though is that we are seeing our culture erode and a new one emerge. Not everyone likes the new one. We liked things the way they were. Mom, flag, and apple pie. Norman Rockwell. Much of that may be nostalgia but nostalgia is part of culture.
Tysons decision offends our sense of culture. On a surface level Tyson has replaced a cherished part of our American calendar with a strange and foreign holiday. All to appease a group of people that, at best, we barely understand. Lets be honest. How many of us know what it is to be a Somali refugee living in a foreign country packing chicken? I dont.
so if a small nod to a group's culture (not religion) is a welcomed accommodation, perhaps we all should be more accepting of that. On the other hand, Tyson cannot afford to appear to be casually tossing Labor Day to the curb. Thats a mistake. A cultural mistake.
I wish we could discuss these topics in light of culture and without the heat and emotion that religion, politics, and race bring. I also wish we could be more honest about how we feel without being labeled a bigot. I think the majority of racial discussions are disengenuous. We tend to like our own and we are generally less comfortable with people whose customs and culture are different. Its just reality. Almost every culture I have heard of discriminates. Its part of our DNA.
If we cant talk honestly, thats when problems really start. Frustration mounts and people act out of anger.
Personally I am glad. I believe it is good to honor diversity, but the contract the union and Tyson agreed to didn't really do that. It put a particular religious sect first. Even if the majority of the employees belong to that sect, you cannot assume it will stay that way, or that non-sect employees will be happy about it. As previously posted, a day for religious observance that anyone can use for their personal purpose is much more appropriate (even an athiest can take a day to celebrate his/her athiesm.)
Let's hope the door is shut and stays that way. Otherwise we will have the clamor of many people of various beliefs demanding that we acknowlege their beliefs too.
Also, the reason this date was made a holiday in particular was because on this date so many people would take the day off as one of their personal days that management actually preferred to have it be an official holiday (see the NY Times article I linked to earlier). So the "random day off for whatever reason" thing wasn't preferable for Tyson.
Having previously worked in the food industry it is necessary to anticipate when your workforce may want to take days off. In parts of West Texas, the first day of pheasant season is a scheduled off day even though it isn't necessarily a holiday. As the Hispanic population increased it was logical to observe Cinco de Mayo as a nonproduction day because we knew many people would not come in, especially the evening shifts. With a floating holiday or personal holiday it allowed those employees who planned ahead to take the day and receive pay without any hint of favoritism for one nationality or religion over another.
Would Tyson and the union received the same degree of criticism if was a Christian or Jewish holiday/holyday? Likely not except from the ACLU. But there is still seriously hard feelings, likely because of fear or lack of trust, against Muslims in general. And the news around the world about terrorists attacks and innocent people being killed stokes these feelings.