Sensitive Issue- Need Help

We just hired a young man of mixed ethnicity. While his features are mostly causasian, he has in his resume references to minority awards he has earned. In filling out the EEOC information I do not know how to list his race. I could ask him what he prefers, but I certainly do not want to be insensitive, and don't know of any way to phrase this. I wouldn't hurt his feelings or embarrass him for anything. Can anyone help me? Should I just mark "other" and be done with it? This doesn't seem fair, in case he closely identifies with or prefers one or the other.
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  • I had an ee who appeared to be African American, but had a Hispanic last name and he checked off both categories. I quietly told him that on my AAP I could claim him only as one or the other and asked his preference. He told me. No hassles, no embarassement.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-28-05 AT 05:26PM (CST)[/font][br][br]lhill,

    I’m recalling a conversation I had with an OFCCP compliance officer and I do believe I remember him saying that an individual does have the option of self-declaring oneself as either a white Hispanic or as a non-white Hispanic. I am not sure of the mechanics for the situation you have at hand, but I’m surmising that the data collection form could be designed to accommodate the nuanced choice(s) and you could carry the individual under "Other" (with a footnote)in the AAP you are compiling.

    geno
  • Sorry Geno; those options are not on the form.
  • Don,

    Form.-- what form? I would never profess to be a source of information or give advice for any state other than the one I reside in. As such, I certainly cannot speak for Massachusetts, but the state of Maryland does collect Affirmative Action data in categories that include, in part: Non- Hispanic Whites, Non-Hispanic Blacks, Hispanics and Two-or-More Races. I stand by my statement that an applicant can indeed declare themselves as either a Black Hispanic or a White Hispanic. Where/how the employer records the declaration in their Affirmative Action Plan might be open for debate but that’s for a different thread.

    Geno
  • I have faced the same dilemma as well. What I do is merely ask the person what race they identify with and explain to them why I am asking. I've never had a problem with them giving me an answer.
  • lhill,

    We use a check-off type form (including, of course the obligatory and ubiquitous space for "other") at application time. I believe that you will find that the concept of self-declaration is the key to your dilemma. You could (if you haven’t already) make available to the employee a form to complete with known options to select from. In the spirit of compliance inherent in Executive Order 11246 is the implied concept that the applicant be given the opportunity to “self-declare” his/her ethnicity – you are not required to guess.

    Geno, SPHR

  • I would say it depends on why you want the information. If you have an affirmative action program and are required to log the demographics of your applicant flow, it would seem that rather than fill out a form yourself, the applicant would be filling out the form himself. If it's your practice that you list the demographic information, instead of the applicant doing it, you might either explain the form and ask him, or turn it around so he can read it and let him make a selection.

    If, however, you are tracking your applicant demographics for some other, non required reason, I'd just let my best guess guide me in posting.
  • If you're tracking it for EEOC reporting you ARE allowed to guess, based on your best eyewitness assessment. However, I agree with the folks above who simply ask the applicant whom they identify with. There's absolutely nothing insensitive in your asking the question.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-28-05 AT 12:07PM (CST)[/font][br][br]Under what conditions would you be tracking it for EEOC purposes? The EEO-1 tracks employees, not applicants. And the OFCCP is the agency that requires applicant demographic tracking in cases of government contracts and subcontracts and that one has the 'self disclosure' feature.

    Unless the employer is in the middle of some kind of conciliatory agreement as the result of a settlement with the EEOC, I don't know why else you would track applicants for them.

    And it seems an awfully vague question to ask "With whom do you identify". You might find a white guy who says he more closely identifies with Hispanics if that's who he's been hanging with.

    (idit) Excuse me. I see where the man HAS indeed been hired.
  • Glad you finally caught up with us, Don.
  • The tracking in non-OFCCP situations is to justify actions to the EEOC or state agencies in a race or sex failure to hire discrimination charge or lawsuit. The data will be expected to be there, the questions will be asked and it is the defense to the actions that have been taken. Granted, not required but vital if needed. It becomes a trade-off between effort and cost vs. being needed for defense.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-28-05 AT 02:59PM (CST)[/font][br][br]I don't know about this G3. I better run it by a lawyer.........x:-)

    But, I will say it is a bizarre notion that an employer would develop and maintain a tracking system just for the purpose of satisfying a request from any government agency for such a record at some potential point in time; and, I have never known of an employer who did that. If it were a 'failure to hire' or 'discrimination in hiring' case, the complainant is already going to assert that they were an applicant; the employer need not roll out a log book to prove that point in the case. And rolling out a log book without the complainant's name in it will be meaningless.

    In either type of charge the employer is going to be required to show why the complainant was not hired and how the hired party exceeded the complainant's qualifications. A log does none of that and a hearing officer or court will not care whether or not the complainant appears on a log. They only want to know why he was not hired.

    And there is nothing else that such a log could or would do to protect the employer's interest after the complainant's case moves along. It would only serve to perhaps push the employer into a quagmire. If you disagree with this, tell me with an example how you think such a log might serve an employer. No theories or mumbo jumbo, just give me an example of how the defense might be aided by the existence of a log.

    Having such a log will only serve the charging party, never the employer.
  • Intent on muddying the waters, are you?
  • No, I'm intent on getting the gentleman from California to deal in specifics and facts rather than ivory tower notions and expert opinion and left-coast logic. Please provide facts and examples. x:-)
  • I once had to deal with a race discrimination charge and not in California. I don't remember the specifics at this point. The charge was that a guy wasn't hired because he was black. The state agency wanted to know how many applicants there were by race and the reason for not hiring him and the reason for hiring the person that was hired. We were able to show, by race, the population at each stage of the recruiting and hiring process. It is much easier to show a non-discrimatory process when there is data to back it up. Another one was the failure to promote a black female and this was California. The questions were the same - how many applicants, by sex. How many were in final consideration, by sex. Why did you hire this one rather than the person that was hired. So we're back to the trade-off. Do you want to spend the time and effort to gather the data or do you want to look a bit clueless when having to answer the questions. The best impresssion is made with the data in hand.
  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-28-05 AT 03:31PM (CST)[/font][br][br]That is simply not accurate G3. If that were the case every employer in the country would be logging walk in traffic. Nobody does it unless the government forces them to and the government only does that as a 'gotcha' measure, certainly never to exhonorate.

    When a hearing is held or a demand letter comes, the EEOC always wants to know who was hired and who was not, by race, age, sex and reason; not how many people walked through the door. If a log showed more of your traffic to be minority and you hired a non-minority, that would bolster the charging party's case. If a log showed more of your traffic to be non-minority the government will simply want to know why you chose another candidate over the charging party. They will not care one iota that the statistics favored (by number) non minorities. The government will stack that evidence against you in every case. So do not voluntarily track it for them.

    Again, I will propose that nobody can offer up an example of how having such a log has ever saved an employer one nickel or one charge. In fact every labor attorney in America would advise against such a non-mandatory log of applicant traffic.


  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-28-05 AT 03:31PM (CST)[/font][br][br]Pick your poison. Data can help or hurt, depending on what it says, and like all data it can be skewed to make all sorts of different interpretations depending on point of view. No data can only hurt because there is no defense without it.

    Incidentally, without an attorney I won the first illustration outright - because of the data. I signed a conciliation agreement in the second. The conciliation was that I would conduct a sensitivity class for the facility managers. The question that the investigator asked me was, "could you tell me how a bunch of managers who tell jokes about black people can make a non-discriminatory hiring decision?". I suppose I could have hung in there and tried to prove that the decision was the right one based on qualifications but the claimant seemed to be more concerned about the process and environment than the decision. It was a cost effective way to resolve the case.
  • I will conclude then that you have no facts or examples to back you up. If you do work as a consultant or have worked as a consultant, you would be the only one in town to recommend to a client that he track his front door traffic by demographics in case the EEOC would like to see it. Please don't tell us that you have made such a recommendation and still had the client.
  • I don't know why your experiences are different than mine but I accept that as what it is. Neither position is logical or illogical, it just is. Maybe it is due to different investigators that we have encountered, maybe because we are in different locations, or whatever, who knows. The cases took place when I was working for an employer, though. As a consultant, when dealing with this issue, I always said, better track data if you have an affirmative action plan and Ca. requires that data (all of it, including applicants) be maintained for two years. It is your business decision as whether or not you want to do that, but if you don't have it, it may hurt you.
  • G3: It's not possible to argue opinions. I've asked several times for facts and examples and you have given none. I don't operate within the framework or context of California specific labor law. That is a concept foreign to most of us. If your state has requirements for tracking applicant data, then the point is not up for argument there. However, I challenge you to tell me one labor attorney or consultant in the country who would recommend that an employer, not covered by Executive Order 11246 or an EEOC conciliatory agreement, actually have a practice and procedure of tracking applicant demographics.

    Your comment as a consultant to 'better track data if you have an affirmative action plan' is a no brainer. It is not optional in that circumstance. It's not 'better track'; it's 'MUST track'. I asked if you had ever, as a consultant, recommended the practice to clients not covered by such a demand. And if you did, why and were you successful or did they drum you off the property. I would have unless you could offer some scintilla of convincing evidence as to why I should.

    Time to move on.
  • If he is of mixed ethnicity, then he is of mixed ethnicity. I really don't see why this is a problem for you. Either ask him if you want to know, or guess if you need to fill out a form and can't tell.

    You can be white and get awards or belong to organizations more geared to black or hispanic causes, for heaven's sake.

    Gee, I belong to lots of organizations, some identifiable with groups not of my background -- as identified by my race/ethnicity/color or gender.


  • I agree Dasher. Ask and move on. I know of only one person of African American ethnicity who would have been offended by the question, only one person who was actually ashamed of ethnicity. And he tried to turn himself into a white woman and is now on trial in California.
  • It really doesn't matter what the rest of us think. If you want or need the info, ask the individual.

    Just a thought: how would you classify Tiger Woods without asking him; Afro, Caucasian, Oriental, Native American? He's made it clear he doesn't believe he falls in any of those categories. As such, I assume for your reporting purposes he would have to be classified as an "other".
  • In the case of our form, he would classify himself. So, It really makes no difference to me what he puts on the form or, in fact, if he puts N/A on it. But since you asked, can you tell me why John Kerry's wife is not African American. She was born in Africa and got her American citizenship later.

    Moving right along.............
  • Don D:

    Excellent question. This actually came up during the election and she laughingly commented that she could be referred as an African-American? Shades of Clinton. It appeared to be a choreographed question.

    Teresa Heinz Kerry - laughing????
  • What is this "Other" category and where does it appear on the EEO-1 report? We are not permitted to write in "other" when reporting the race, gender and/or ethnicity of our employees. EVERY employee must be reported, and must appear in ONE of the categories. That's why the EEOC has specifically stated that we are allowed to simply take our best guess based on a visual survey.
  • I guess if the employee won't and you can't, then check whichever would most benefit the data that are being tracked by the government goons and move on to important work. x:-) peace.
  • That's the absurdity in all of this. If the employee refuses to answer the question we are empowered to answer for them because the Feds have said that every employee WILL be slotted into a Gov't approved category...even Tiger, if he were so inclined to join my company and take a gazillion dollar paycut. Heinz-Kerry would be "White," by the way; there is no such thing as "African American" on the EEO-1. Peace-out...mad props to my peeps. Do folks still use "peeps?" I can't keep up.
  • Okay, Don, you got me. This extremely talented person of whom you refer has more concerns than his physical appearance. I never heard him mention being ashamed of being African American -- he just didn't like his looks or self period. How do you think I feel, seeing that beautiful brown boy, turn into . . . Well, at least his talent stays in tact.
  • You don't know that any more than I know that he didn't like being Black. Yours is opinion and so is mine. Although mine appears to be mirrored by millions. Why else would he have everybody in his family do the same plastic surgery trying to make them what they are not? Just typing about him makes me ill. I need to wash my hands. 'Scuse me.
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