Fire or warn this one?

J9JC

I have a long time employee who has recently turned into a very bad employee. She has been one of my best performers but has some personal issues that seem to be causing her to have a very bad attitude. I had to discipline her about 2 years ago for doing taxes for others and charging them while on company time. Please note I wanted to fire her then but the big boss liked her and wanted to give her a chance. About 2 weeks ago I witnessed her doing some tax work on her pc, so due to past history, I had the IT people put a program on her pc to track her work. This has shown blatant disregard for company policy. She has downloaded instant message chatting software to the pc, has been surfing the internet a good 60-75% of her time here and extensive personal emailing and instant messaging. We have a policy that states these items are for company use only, and any abuse of the system is grounds for discipline up to and including termination. We have fired others for downloading unauthorized software without permission. My biggest concern is , she is a minority and I don't want to end up in a law suit. I wonder if any court would think I should have warned her. I was the one who hired her so I would also be the one firing her. In the messages to her friends she openly states she does not like working here anymore and does not care about doing her job, so I don't think a warning and probation are going to effect any change. Please advise me!!! Company owner wants to fire her not warn.

Don D

Warn Her? You've already warned her! Two years ago when she was disciplined for the same activity (taxes) she was warned. When you published your company policy, she was advised of the consequences. That is an additional warning. Minority status gives nobody the additional protection of coasting or abusing policies. I would fire her immediately. No additional warnings, no additional writeups, no counseling, no agreements, no probation. Show her the door and keep an eye on her while she packs.

J9JC

Even if I cannot confirm that she was doing or just looking at her personal taxs forms? I am worried I have no proof positive to back up what she was doing although I saw it with my own two eyes. I know bieng a minority does not allow any special treatment and I was thinking since we have fired others for the same infractions, we could her also but I just want to be double sure I have my ducks in row. I do have all the pc logs showing her daily work, or lack there of. Thanks so much for you reply!

Crout

Didn't you say that your IT people tracked her illegal usage? That sounds like proof to me.

J9JC

Yes but not until after I saw her doing some tax work, did I institue the tracking. I have her downloading software, abusing internet, email and instant message, so yes I have those things.

Don D

You also have personal, first hand knowledge that she was doing taxes. You witnessed it according to your post above. Perhaps you also have her signed acknowledgement of having received the handbook and the records from her prior discipline and the log your IT people created. This is way more than enough to defend a termination in any venue, whether it be Unemployment Insurance or EEOC. Most of us would love to have as much evidence when we move to terminate. Your ducks are in a row. But beware, ducks do not stay in a row forever. They tend to get out of line and waddle off in other directions after awhile.

J9JC

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 12-08-04 AT 10:18AM (CST)[/font][br][br]I usually tend to OVER compensate with documentation. I have had to defend a discrimination lawsuit before and won clearly through my paperwork and documentation. I am just paranoid... :-) I pride myself on not having any of my terminations come back to bite the company, along with winning all Unemp. denials and such. I just coudl not seem to get my brain 100% happy about this one. Maybe it is beause of the long term relationship with the company. I thank you so much for all your postings and I will heed the warning to keep the duck on straight and narrow path! Maybe a herding dog would help! :-)

Oh and yes I have signed handbook acknowledgement fro every year.

marc

I subscribe to the philosophy that the EE should never be surprised when they are fired. A well-scripted series of events would lead to a natural conclusion that both the EE and the ER knew it was coming, etc. etc.

That a nice cozy philosophy, but in the real world, sometimes you must jump right to termination.

When you warned her about doing taxes on company time, did you state that any more violations would be cause for termination? Seems like it was blatant enough at the time to terminate, but since the company opted for the warning, you should at least have gone far enough to tell her the next time would be it!

Even if you did not let her know then, the rest of your documentation shows a terrible employee. That is enough to do it for me.

J9JC

I too subscribe to your philosophy, and maybe that is why I am feeling uneasy. I jsut think this situation has not left me any options and I do believe in being accountable for one's actions. This was certainly not done to her, she did it herslef.

To answer the question, yes she was told any further infraction would result in termination.

marc

Then pull the trigger.

Rockie

I think everyone, at some time, has felt somewhat apprehensive when dealing with a long time employee who needs to be terminated and we somehow try to find a way to "save" them. Believe me, a lot of them bank on this as a way to try to avoid adhering to the rules that all the other employees have to abide by, somehow feeling they should be "exempted" from this.

By all means, you have a clear cut case to terminate her. Fair warnings, documentation that the next incident could lead to termination. There is no discrimination issue here and your documentation appears to be solid.

Do it!

J9JC

Thanks for the support! I think she was relying on her past performance, her time here and the fact we are a small company and very close knit. Also the holidays and all, and I know she is going to be hit very hard by this. She depends on our year end bonus to do her Christmas shopping but agian, maybe that fact should have made her value the job more. It is a very sad thing...

Balloonman1

Hey I just heard on the news that now is a good time to be looking for a job. So view it that you are doing her a favor by freeing her up to find work she will enjoy. Fire her. Not Friday, not tomorrow, today. Draft the paperwork, and do it. The quicker the better.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman

J9JC

Thank all of your for the support! You get things in your mind and sometimes you just need comfirmation from others who know the laws. I really appreciate everyones support, especially since I am new to the board!

Don D

J9JC: You know what? Have I got news for you. You have totally exposed yourself to all of us as being human! Congratulations. It shines through brightly and I'm sure most of us are proud of you for that. A lot of us old heads have been involved in hundreds of terminations. It never gets easy. There's never 'the best time'. There's never a right way or an easy way or a 'not hurtful way'. It affects us all and I see your emotion in your hesitancy. As you said so well, you did not do this to her, she did it to herself. You said early on that the boss has made the decision. You are not firing her. Her actions got her fired and she was well aware of the consequences. You are merely delivering the message, which is sure to be bad news. If you did not do your homework (which you have now done) and deliver that message, you would not be doing your job for the company. Chin up! Keep us posted.
x:-)

J9JC

Looks like after lunch is D-day or shall I say T-day! Thanks for the comments, I confess to being human, maybe a touch too sympathetic for this job, and always tending to make sure "we", the employer, are not overreacting or jumping too soon. I hope that has only served to make sure we are doing the right thing and the employees get a more than fair shot. You cannot believe the accomodations we have made for this employee so she has a good work environment and I feel somewhat betrayed. Oh well, I need to let it go and look forward to the fresh face that will replace her!

lhill

I agree with everyone else. Fire her for this policy violation, and do it now. Otherwise, a simple warning might keep her on board into another quarter of unemployment benefits if she is able to win her claim. I just faced a similar situation, and received confirmation from the workforce commission that it is better to do it before the end of the year if it is a "done deal". Sounds like yours fits the bill.

LH

Balloonman1

So how did it go? We are all curious.

My $0.02 worth,
DJ The Balloonman

J9JC

It went painfully ....she was surprised, upset, acknowledged her abuses but wished someone said something instead of this.

So now I could use any of your great advice on how I try to salvage the upset and such the rest of the employees are going to suffer from this. I think I mentioned we are a small company and we all work very closely together.

marc

It is amazing that she thought another course of action would be appropriate. After receiving a warning with the clear statement that another incident would result in termination, and acknowledging the other abuses, that she thought all of this was meaningless in the context of her employment.

The distinction between ER and EE gets very blurred in small companies. We tend to think of and treat co-workers as family, not remembering that the relationship is an economic arrangement at it's core.

As hard as it will be, you must not give details to the other EEs. You must be circumspect and just say the employment relationship was not working out and surely they must understand that this stuff must remain confidential.

Your other EEs probably knew or will know what was really going on. Obviously some of them were getting paid to have their taxes done if she was doing them on company time. The fact that they also paid her paints them with the same brush. They must have felt the pangs of their conscience pricking them in this conduct.

The message will get out and you will probably see them toeing the line a bit more, which is a good thing. As long as you are treating them consistently and with the perception of fairness, overlaid by an ethical expectation of an even exchange (work for pay), they will come to appreciate their jobs --- or you can free up their future to make way for folks that will.

Hang tough, you did the right thing.

J9JC

Thanks much for putting that in a very good perspective! I am very confident that the other employees knew about the abuses and can come to thier own conclusions, because there will be no disclosure of any information on my part for sure!

I'll try to quit feeling bad now...:-)

Dasher

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 12-10-04 AT 10:45AM (CST)[/font][br][br]No need to feel bad -- it does not help the terminated employee or the company. I am so sorry I did not see your post before. Just wanted to say that terminations are always difficult. Would also have said that being a minority does not excuse behavior that necessitates termination it is simply to be used to be sure you are evaluating and treating all cases the same. (For instance, you may have wanted to audit several other employee's sites to make sure they are not abusing the email/internet; as well as ascertain if there were others doing personal business with company equipment). If you found that to be the case you may have wanted to take a broader approach (company meeting, etc.) to address the problem, and also protect the company from a discrimination challenge.

That is not to say that the steps you took were not proper and I do not wish you to revisit the decision, etc. Just know that this is advice I always use before a termination and wanted you to know about it.

Have a great weekend.

J9JC

I always apprecite the perspective and I really like your ideas and input. I will keep them in mind for future reference.

You have a great weekend also!