Racial Epithet

cwells

I have a long-term (30+ year) employee who made a racial comment to some of my employees. They immediately came to me and told me what he said. After talking to several employees, I talked to the employee who made the comment. Of couse, he lied (big surprise). Now I have to finish my investigation and deliver the punishment. I feel immediate termination is in order, however, other managers feel that disciplinary suspension without pay would be better due to his long-term employment. Help! Anyone ever have this problem? x:-/

Gillian3

If this is the first time, I side with the managers. Termination is a tough penalty for a first offense of this nature, especially for a long service employee. Depending on what was said, suspension without pay might be too strong, but not knowing what it was, I can't say.

cwells

We had a job posting up. Several employees bid on the job including one black male and one supervisor (white). The black male was selected for the position due to capabilities. This employee said, how does the supervisor feel about getting beat out by a n(word)?

Don D

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I agree with my friend Gillian3. Termination for a remark, first offense, 30 year employee is indeed to harsh a penalty. What was said and in what context and to whom or about whom?

(edit) Sorry, we posted at the same time. Termination is not warranted. Not knowing the employee's file, I think counseling is in order which I would probably advance to step 3 in our 5 step process.

System

I agree. Termination would be excessive. This individual does need to be disciplined, though, because that kind of remark is way, WAY out of line. (Sorry, my personal feelings are sneaking in here.) He needs to be counseled, sign a form with a write-up of the meeting, and follow your disciplinary policy. If you don't have one, get one. I'd send the guy home for three days without pay myself.

Gillian3

Now that I know that it is the "n" word, I vote for the harshest penalty short of termination. This guy should know that the next time is "out".

Parabeagle

Absolutely termination, if this is a first offense, is NOT warranted (IMHO). A 30-year employee with an otherwise good record deserves more consideration. I would probably suspend w/o pay for a couple of days to get the point across that we are serious about the issue, but if he's anything like some of the older employees I've dealt with in the past, he's of a generation that just doesn't get it (or, if he gets it he doesn't want to accept it), and may not grasp the gravity of the situation. A couple days off should help him get it.

cwells

He's an older employee that doesn't think that saying the n-word is wrong (in his mind).

Don D

Actually he doesn't have to agree that it's wrong. He only has to agree that he understands it will not be tolerated at the company and if he repeats it, he has no job there any longer. You don't have to teach an old dog new tricks, just let him learn quickly that pooping in the kitchen will get him tossed out the back door.

SDDCHR

Minimum, a "stearn" reprimand. But, based on what was said and knowing a little more history on this ee, a one or two day suspension may be warranted. I definetly would not terminate at this stage. But, I would make it clear in the suspension letter that future occurrences will result in further disciplinary action to include up to termination.

HRratrace

Don, that's the first smile I've had all day. Thanks for the "pooping" analogy.

cebudragonlady

Actually, the fact that he is a long-term emplyee is irrelevant. Any of your employees who use this unacceptable word at the workplace have to be punished the same. Suspend one for a first offense, then you started a precedent. Terminate for a first offense - and that is a precedent, too.

Chari

Pork

CWELLS: Why are you the appointed "hatchetman" is this person in HR? Are you the appointed investigator because the GM or CEO assigned you to do the investigation? Who gave you the knife? Why are you not completing the investigation and recommending punishment alternatives to his manager/supervisor? I, too, would recommend his manager take written action to suspend without pay and would possibly recommend we suspend the suspension. I would have to know more about the actual incident to determine if he/she deserves the right to remain an employee of this organization.

Keep us posted as you proceed, again as I have often posted HRs should be a staff supporter whenever possible.

PORK

Leslie

We'd term, and have.

About a year ago a customer made a request of a busy 50 plus year-old caucasian male lead - about three years service - who responds (he says jokingly), "I'm not your n*****." He's gone.

A couple months ago, another employee - Native American, about three months service - said the same thing to another employee OVER THE RADIO. Another joke. Ha ha. He's gone.

Where do you draw the line at what is offensive enough for discharge, and what is less offensive for suspension?

Parabeagle

In neither example you gave, Leslie, were they 30-year employees. I still maintain that some degree of flexibility should be employed here because of the length of service and, I assume, otherwise clean record of the employee.

In your case, they had only been employed for three years and three months, respectively. You don't have as much invested in these short-term employees as you do in one who has dutifully served for 30 years and screwed up on one occasion.

No, I think a suspension is enough to get this employee's attention.

Leslie

Okay - here we go again. Say I have a 30-year employee who does what the above two did. I don't discharge. What does that say about fairness of application of policy?

mwild31

cwells - I'm interested in learning why you think immediate termination is in order. What did you uncover during the investigation that leads you to believe as strongly as you do? Maybe it's just the way you wrote about the issue on the thread, with no deeper meanings involved, however, you did say that this fellow doesn't think saying it was wrong - how do you know that? Did it come up during the investigation or has it come up before with this fellow? Anyway, why do you want to terminate?

Mercy

I too would suspend without pay. However, I want you to know your statements about older employees are unkind and inappropriate - hate to generalize any group with negative statements!

cwells

We have a zero tolerance policy. If we don't terminate what does that say? By the way, he is not the "ideal" employee. He should have been terminated long before, but, let him off with a slap on the wrist (for different things). Just because he's a 30 year employee doesn't mean he should get a lesser punishment than a 5 year employee. Any way, after the investigation, him lying about the incident, he was given a final warning, suspended without pay and counseling through our EAP.

LeeR

What ever you do to this guy be prepared to do the same thing to the next black you hear using the term. I wouldn't suspend or terminate. If he would have been talking face to face with some one and called them "nigger" I would view much more seriously, hostile and I would terminate in that instance. But then I could be wrong.

Don D

In this context, what does zero tolerance mean? Zero tolerance for what? The N word? Anything related to race? The use of a slang term such as Chink? Calling someone nappy headed? Saying the word Honky? Saying 'You white folk'? Talking about Japs on December 7? Zero tolerance needs definition.

cwells

We have a zero tolerance policy. If he isn't terminated, what kind of message is that sending? He isn't your "ideal" employee. He has had different problems in the past. His punishment was suspension without pay, final warning and counseling through our EAP.

Pork

cwells: YOUR COMPANY NOW HAS A "zero tolerance policy" + 1 other opporturnity to fail, if you are a 30 year employee. Now that ain't so bad unless you are the 29 year employee that uses the "N" word, or the "W" word, or the "H" word or the "ABC" word in any kind of communication that could be considered anything other than professional language.

PORK

JudyT929

We would have fired him immediately and have done so in a similar situation. If he had made the comment to or about a client wouldn't that qualify for immediate termination? Why should a client be given more respect than a fellow employee.

HRGuyMS

Having had that word used against me in the past, it is difficult to explain how degrading it makes one feel. You said that the employee lied to you during the investigation also. In my organization he is long gone, regardless of length of service.

Whatever

Cindy-I believe that your real question was missed. As I see it, you feel the ee should have been terminated and I agree with you. However, as you discovered, other managers felt differently. Therefore, be advised that this is a somehwhat common occurrence. I don't know who made the final decision to suspend. I am assuming it wasn't you. I believe you understand the long term consequences of ignoring a company policy. However, for some reason, you were not listened to. You should try to learn from this. Particularly, learning one of the hardest things about this job and that is telling all the idiot managers (I say this sarcastically and not angrily)that it doesn't matter if it's a long term ee, it doesn't matter if it's a "good" worker, it doesn't matter if it's a "nice guy with a family", if certain rules are not enforced by the company, the company will pay the price.

cwells

Thank You! Our job is very difficult when everyone is not listening. You hit it right on!!
xclap

marc

I agree with Pork's observation that your zero tolerance policy was just stretched into a zero tolerance plus one.

That said, I think it would be fun to make this guy prepare and conduct a diversity training session for fellow EEs complete with all the bells and whistles. This could be some logical consequences of his conduct.

cwells

That would be pretty good!

hhaynal

It's funny this thread came up now since I have a similar situation. We also have a zero tolerance policy on harassment which includes racial slurs. The perp used the word "bojangles" that was directed to one AA. The intended victim didn't here the word but another AA did and was offended. After investigating the matter, this was not the firm time the "comment" was utilized.

I wanted immediate termination based on the policy, but would settle for unpaid suspension. HR folks and dept mgr want one-day paid suspension to think about it.

After reading the thread in response to cwells, perhaps I'm being to harsh? Thoughts?

Pork

HHAYNAL: Mark's idea is right on and would give everyone the opportunity to tune in to the sensitivity issues in our language. For at least 50 % of we humans would rather "PEE our pants" rather than be the focus of a subject in front of a group of people! Lessons will be learned by all and the terror in the hearts of leading another sensitivity seminar would be profound!

PORK