Disciplinary action

ray a

A question on procedure to see how other HR pro's handle discipline...

We use a progressive disciplinary process. Supervisors can give out verbal reprimands without input from HR. Written reprimands and more severe must handled through HR.

What is your personal involvement in the disciplanary process? Do you do the talking and have the supervisor sit in as a witness or do you make the supervisor do the talking and you act as a witness?

AJ SPHR

Managers/Supervisors can handle verbals and written warnings on their own. When it gets close to potential termination, they then get HR involved. I help ensure final warnings have proper "or else!" statements and also talk them through how they should handle the discussion. I do NOT sit in on their performance warning meetings.

When it comes to the final termination meeting, I either sit in on the meeting, or at least am available so that I come right in after the termination notice has been given to the employee and I follow up with reviewing the termination packet (termination letter summarizing final pay due to employee and impact on all benefit programs due to termination; confidential release; outplacement packet; any benefit conversion forms required).

I do not think it's HR's responsibility to terminate an employee - it's the manager's decision (usually with agreement/concurrence or at least assurance from HR), not HR's decision. I agree that HR should be involved in the final step and also offer assistance at any step along the way.
Hope this helps!

rad

Ours is very similar, HR gets involved at the very end when there is a termination. We have union folks and they are disciplined according to the contract which does not involve HR at all, supervisors only.

lnelson

We follow the same procedures as AJ SHR although when issuing written disciplinary the Manager/Supervisor is present along with another Supervisor just as a witness to facts and the ee.

All sign the disciplinary but only ee and ee Sup/Mgr make comments and speak during process.

2445428

Verbal warnings are given by the supervisor and documented, however, if the problem is not corrected and a written warning is given, it is first discussed with HR. Documentation is always accomplished with the supervisor and HR.
Disciplinary meetings that result in a written warning or final termination should never be conducted with just the employee and the supervisor. It is important to have a witness present, preferably an HR person.

ray a

A little follow up... I am required by corporate to be involved with written warnings, suspensions and of course terminations. To ensure no legal problems arise from the wrong thing being said, I am expected to drive these discussions with the ee's - my boss trusts my judgement, but that of the supervisors. Typically, the supervisor is just there to as a witness. My concern, is that I develop the reputation as the bad guy or the enemy. I realize it is a fine line we must walk, and I'm concerned that I don't lean too far in one direction. So, my interest is in knowing how others handle this.

SDDCHR

I thoroughly discuss the actions with the supervisor. If disciplinary action is taken, I will draft the letter to ensure all the t's are crossed and i's dotted. But will then have the supervisor sign it and give it to the employee. No matter what we do, HR is going to come out the "bad guy" whenever these actions are taken. But, we just have to keep telling ourselves that it's not our actions that initiated it in the first place.

Gillian3

I agree. Supervisors and managers should manage this process as well - it's their job. Our job is to train them to make sure that they know the process and can be fair. We step in when the exceptions occur and are available to help the supervisor. We should have a more active role at the termination stage to make sure that termination is warranted and may sit in as a witness when necessary. When the discipline process becomes an HR thing then we become known as the place where the employees go to get hired and fired, hardly a situation conducive to employee confidence in HR as a problem solver or a place to go to get help.

marc

We blend some of the methods being followed above. The supervisors are encouraged to handle the entire desciplinary process, and we have lots of training to develop and improve their skills in this area. That said, most of the supervisors are empathetic types, due largely to the type of business we conduct. They almost always want their hands held every step of the way, which we are glad to do. Lots of affirmation involved - acknowledging when they have it right and gently correcting when they go astray.

They also rely heavily on their directors. Of our three directors, one is very strong in this area, one is middling and the third a bit weak. I end up helping the two with lesser skills quite a bit, always with an eye toward developing those skills. The third just checks her thinking with me in sticky situations.

I almost always witness the final write-up meeting and the termination meetings.

Sunny

Ray: I'm in your shoes, although not happily. I issue all warnings. If they are standard attendance warnings through the first 2, the supervisor hands them out. I lead on all of the rest - third attendance warnings (last before termination), all behavioral warnings and disciplinary meetings, all terminations. The supervisors and managers are generally just there as witnesses. I agree that this is not the best way to go but we are in a union manufacturing environment and it's traditional here. In addition, management perceives (with some reason) that not all of the supervisors/managers would handle disciplinary actions well.

I would rather train the supervisors but - once again - it's not my call.

ray a

Well, in one sense I'm glad I'm not alone, Sunny. I actually was beginning to teach supervisors to discipline and even terminate - I would be the witness and make them do the talking. We would play act ahead of time and I would give them pointers and instructions. Then I was told it was my responsibility and not to let the supervisors, managers, or even directors do it themselves.

Sunny

I'm sure we're not the only ones. I guess I see top management's point - they've been burned by supervisors/managers saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. On the other hand, I hate that people are apprehensive when I show up unexpectedly in someone's office or call a plant worker into mine. Oh well, maybe we can view it as job security????

Crout

Even if you are completely neutral....functioning as a passive witness only...you will still be seen as the Angel of Death. The very fact of your presence generally means bad things will happen. As one of our EE's put it when she saw me walk in the door to one of our administration buildings: "Rick in the house, someone in trouble." It comes with the territory.

Pork

Ray A: I am involved, usually from the start but way our there on the edges and watch the process as it progresses. The "hammers fall" when they are suppose to fall, and with the right amount of impact. You know that if you really want to get a MULE's attention and focus, the "old farmers" would use a 2 by four board with a "smack" between the eyes. The result was usually a cooperating "plowing mule", hard headed and all, but plowing as directed!!! The progressive discipline policy has been taught to every manager and junior leader. It is theirs to execute and mine to monitor.

In my teaching role, and many times on this forum, I try to express a need for the HR to be at arms length in managing the work force. When you the HR become so close to the action that you assume the strong roll of MANAGER/SUPERVISOR OF THAT UNIT. I

f the led see you as the person giving out "wage increases", "promotions", (THE GOOD REWARDS), "INVOLUNTARY,TRANSFER", "DEMOTIONS", "DISCIPLINE", AND "TERMINATIONS", THEN YOU WILL BECOME THE PERSON WITH POWER. POWER, WHICH YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE; WEAK MANAGERS AND SUPERVISORS, IN THIS SITUATION WILL STEP BACK AND LET YOU HANDLE IT ALL. STRONG MANAGERS AND SUPERVISORS WILL HATE AND CROSS YOUR PATH AND YOUR LIFE AS HE WILL BE LESS FULL-FILLING.

MY RECOMMENDATION IS FOR YOU TO STEP BACK AND LIVE A LONG AND REWARDING HR'S LIFE AND MAKE THE MANAGERS/SUPERVISORS.

SORRY ABOUT THE SCREEMING; it is just to early for this old man to be trying to act like a receptionist/secretary. I should stick with HR!
I guess I ate to much prime rib last night, I did notice my sugar was a little high this morning.

YA"LL have a beautiful, nice weathered day in your part of the Blessed world.

PORK

ray a

POrk, you mean you admit to eating something other than pork? Gotta say, I had some leftover pork barbeque Tuesday night for dinner and was sicker 'n a dog Weds.

Gillian3

Regarding the comments about we're going to be seen as the bad guys no matter what - it really depends on how we do the rest of our job, not just the disciplinary stuff in isolation. If we are viewed as somewhere to go to get a fair hearing, are known to operate without violating confidences, etc. etc. the fact that we may sometimes get involved in terminations will not detract from the overall view that employees have of us. After all, employees know when one of their cohorts deserves dismissal and many times wonder why it took so long.

LFernandes

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 04-16-04 AT 11:20AM (CST)[/font][br][br]I'm involved from the start: Verbal counseling, First Verbal, First Written and Termination. I have the supervisors provide me with all the facts and documentation, they are responsible for writing up the warnings and then I review them for compliance prior to them sitting down with the employee. During a counseling session with the employee, it is usually just the supervisor. With First Verbal and First Written Warnings, it's the supervisor and manager or department head, and with HR sitting in on terminations. HR sits in on all Terminations 1) as a witness and 2) to make sure that the supervisor doesn't say anything stupid. Before a termination, I usually go over what to say and what not to say during the termination proceedings.

LF

PS - I apologize for my lack of typing ability today. I've edited this thing twice. LOL

Paul in Cannon Beach

My role as HR manager may vary depending on the supervisor and the situation. Basic, day to day discipline is the responsibility of the supervisor unless they request my assistance.

In general, I view my role as the workforce development expert. That allows our supervisors to worry about the day to day operations of their departments, meaning our maintenance manager can worry about what building materials are best, etc.

He comes to me when he needs help with an employee issue. I offer as much help as he requires and generally do not force myself into a sitution unless I feel its imperative to do so.

I prefer to help supervisor problem solve and nip performance issues in the bud before the become actual disciplinary situations. I view a termination as a partial failure on my part either in the hiring stage or the performance management stage.

The hardest part is walking that line between staff motivator and enforcer, management and everyone else. I remember asking a staff member out for coffee and he worried for days that he was in trouble. I just wanted to get to know him better.

However, I find if you are sincere, willing to admit your mistakes, caring, and have no personal agenda other than supporting the stated mission of your organization, you will generally be well recieved.

yrunvus

My process is similaryto LFernandes. My supervisors/managers/chiefs all do what is called supervisory notes and turn them into HR monthly. What this supervisory notes consistents of documentation that a supervisor met with their employee to discuss a problem with work such as not meeting deadlines, etc. If the employee continues then the supervisor may issue a verbal alert.

We actually have a form that is used and I always make sure the my managers refer it back to some policy, procedural rule, etc that has been issued in writing to the employee. I have seen supervisor try to punish an employee for doing something wrong but the employee didn't know he was doing it wrong. I review the verbal alert to ensure all proper documentation is there and the supervisor issues it to the employee. They both have to sign off on it.

Any other type of disciplinary action after this (PIP, Suspension, Termination) is ran by me with me included in the meeting. I don't do the talking I'm there to make sure the supervisors don't say something silly. Like I'm terminating you because you brought your baby in the office and you didn't bring it by to see me and I thought maybe you had an attitude.

Yes this was said at a termination that took place while I was out at a training conference. Yes it was overturned.

System

I have a nice size work force to deal with (over 400) and here is how I handle:
Verbals are handled by management. Written warnings are conducted by mgt as well...as long as I look at them first. As stated by others, some managers will put the most ignorant things in writing.
When it comes time for termination, we have a sit down discussion with the general manager and look over the file. Make sure all our "i's" and "t's" are dotted and crossed.
The termination itself is always conducted with the manager and another witness. HR is not present. I know that sounds scary, and it took a while for me to get used to, but my boss wants HR to be viewed as a "safe haven". If the employee wants to talk to someone about their write-up (or termination) who else can they go to if HR is the one doing the "deed"?
Our area had a work-place shooting several years ago. The fired employee came back to work and went straight to HR and shot up the place. My office is located at the front of the building and the boss said he did not want HR present at the termination. I can't argue with him.
The employee is then escorted to HR to collect themselves, and we enter the picture at that point to give them info about benefits,etc.

HRQ

I review and edit all documented dicussions via email before they are shared with the employee. The supervisors write the documents themselves and share it with the employee with their assistants as a witnesses.

The supervisors used to do this process without me until I saw what was "out there" in the employee files. It's a great coaching process, although pretty time consuming but the results are worth it.

I used to see write ups with no supervisor or employee signature and the body of the document generally didn't explain much, no specifics, no consequences, sometimes not even dates. For the most part, now they send me witness statements, fairly decent documents, and even their opinion on how they'd like to proceed. Imagine! x;-) It's been a long road and we still have a ways to go.

I don't sit in on any of the discussions except for discipline of managers. It's just not reasonable, logistically, since there are so many locations so far apart.

Tish

Oral is without HR involvement in the meeting, many times the supervisors will run it by me before hand. Written or more severe HR must review the documentation and sit in on the meeting. Usually the only time I will step in is if the supervisor can't talk due to foot in mouth sydrome. I usually do a closing statement to the effect "Do you understand why we did this....." Or to reenforce the seriousness of the situation.

Shawn

I do all the discipline. It alows me to spend time one on one with the employees who realy need the attention. With 210 employees it gets busy. Some days I do them with more than one employee at a time. Saves time....Everyone in the room is hereby scolded!

Seriously, in the public sector in Ohio, employees who are deprived of any pay (suspension , discharge, etc) have a right to a Loudermill (pre-deprivation) hearing where they get to hear the charges and tell their side of the story. As a result, all discipline gets approved through HR. The direct Supervisor does verbals & written warnings. HR takes over from there because the process can get complicated.