Need some help...

LindaS

I have a family of employees (mother, father and son) who cause alot of problems. It's like they look at each policy, procedure, etc. and try to find a way around it. We have had issues with them regarding vacation usage, flextime, spending too much time away from their workstations and now our Safety Regulations.

I am as consistent and fair as possible so this has resulted in these employees receiving various warnings, both formal and informal. None of the warnings were any different than anyone else has received for the same type of actions but I always get a grievance on it and have to spend the time, energy, and money fighting it.

Anyway yesterday the father of the family comes to the Plant Manager and claims he feels that his family is being discriminated against (they are native american). The Plant Manager asks him about it and he just repeats it. In addition he believes I am the one discriminating against them, even though I'm NOT the person who determines the level of discipline (in fact I've only been involved in one decision to discipline and I talked the supervisor into going with a lesser degree of discipline). In addition, at some point this morning the father put on some type of makeup (similar to the war paint you see in the movies)and has worn it throughout the day. As management we have decided NOT to say anything since we allow makeup to be worn (although normally by women) but I'm not quite sure where to go with this.

Any ideas?

HR in CA

Linda

If you have treated them as you would any other employee, I do not see this as an issue to be overly concerned about. I assume you have documentation leading up to the disciplinary actions.

This might be the time to tighten up the loopholes they are finding in your policies.

As far as the face paint goes, I'm assuming it's being used for intimidation purposes. Again I am just assuming.

Pork

IT SURE READS LIKE A HOSTILE WORK PLACE TO ME; WAR PAINT AND ALL! It is time to take the nice guy gloves off and call a spade a spade. War paint is not the same as make-up for women and brute for men or aqua velva, there is an intimidation reaction to this signs and it should not be allowed.

The company needs to face the issues and discipline the individuals for their behaviors regardless of their National Origin; if you don't then your are reverse discriminating against all other ees. If the management team has reviewed the situation and find that there is zero room for a discrimination charge from your companies' pasted history, then there is no reason not to get more sever with the need for all employees to become team players or for those who don't to fine someplace else to work.

May you have a more Blessed day tomorrow!

PORK

deniseE

I have to agree about the war paint....you would not permit someone to come in wearing a white sheet just because women are permitted to wear dresses....would you?

continue to document and discipline as needed. You may find that you will eventually terminate these ee's. In the end if you stick to the policies and make no exceptions, you'll have a much easier time defending your company to any agency the family files a complaint with.

Hunter1

While I think you need to deal with the face paint, I'd tread lightly: employees like this are ingenious as you know. Would you make an employee after a Good Friday service take the ashes off their forehead? He'll come up with some religious significance to this face painting and you'll be defending yourself.
Ask him the reason for it, and when he doesn't come up with an answer off the top of his head, then tell him to remove it. If he refuses, he's insubordinate.
We can talk smart, we don't have to deal with the guy. Good Luck

Beave

Pont of interest: Catholics receive ashes on their forhead during services on "Ash Wednesday" which was February 25 this year.

Crout

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 03-24-04 AT 02:32PM (CST)[/font][br][br]Don't get your feathers all ruffled over this (snort) Sorry, I couldn't resist.

1. If there has been no adverse employment action, then there has been no illegal discrimination.

2. Tell him that the war paint is inappropriate and if he reports to work tomorrow in that condition you will immediately suspend him pending further disciplinary action.

Whatever

Forget the war paint. It appears that they are looking for the company to create a reason for these ees to sue the company. Treat them the same as you would anyone else. With a little patience, they will soon be gone and you will have the paperwork to prove you didn't disciminate.
As an aside, I once had an ee who complained about everything (including but not exclusive to warnings they received and breaks that weren't long enough if one wanted to smoke more than one cigarette). Finally, it was determined that no one was free to talk to him except during the ee's breaks and lunch period. Never heard from him again.

HRsage

I agree with Whatever. Forget about the warpaint. Stick to your policies and time will tell.

I wouldn't want to try to explain in a court what I felt the difference is between war paint and other facial make-up.
I could just picture the attorney asking how I obtained my expertise in Native American customs.

Just because it's markings on a man's face doesn't mean it's war paint. He's just testing you.

Just my opinion.

Balloonman

Ahhh we all have these employees............play the game enjoy the game........win the game by following the contract. He may be an idiot, and grieve everything that is done to him, but how many have they won? Follow the contract and be patient grasshopper............your reward will be all of them filing for unemployment. :-)
My $0.02 worth!
DJ The Balloonman

hrtexas

In Texas we contact the Texas Workforce Commission office for Employers. They have a legal staff to answer touchy questions like this. If you have a similar Commission in your state I would suggest contacting them.

SMace

Unless you have a policy prohibiting war paint, I would ignore it. He's got the worm on the hook, don't bite. I think the discrimination claim should be investigated. If you are the one that normally investigates, you need to find someone else that can do it. Sit him down and find out exactly what discriminating behavior he is talking about. Then respond to it. Sounds like he will not have any specifics, so the investigation should be short and sweet. Like B-man said, just sit baclk and wait. He's digging his hole. He'll fall in soon.

Dasher

Please do treat them like you would everyone else. I would ask him to remove the painted face when at work (whether there is a dress policy or not). It is not appropriate. If he claims a religious accommodation, have him provide verification and tell him the company will take it under advisement. Also, the advice to investigate (and document, please) the discrimination charge should be done by you or your manager as soon as possible. Don't fall for the drama -- just practice good HR.

Cinderella

Lots of advice here on this tough issue.

My only two cents is, if you document the whole "war paint" thing, don't refer to it in your documentation as "war paint". x:)

LindaS

Thanks to all for your advice...

The employee reported to work today (so far, at least) without the makeup. I plan to talk to my boss, the president of the company, today and get his take on things. This is a difficult situation because alot of what has occurred is based on verbal conversations, without any documentation. As a company we have "bent over backwards" to accomodate issues with this family including, but not limited to, allowing one of them to switch shifts due to child care issues, allowing them time off to deal with a situation regarding their grandchildren, and the most recent by allowing the son to "save" his vacation time for his honeymoon and allowing him several days off for his wedding.

I think the basic problem is that, as a company we try to the best of our ability to work with the employee (all employees) regarding issues that occur outside of work but it has become an entitlement attitude instead of being grateful to the company for what it does for them.

I plan to discuss the discrimination claim to determine, what exactly, the person means but I don't expect alot of cooperation.

Don D

I've read all the posts, listened to the drumbeat of the majority and read Pork's smoke signals (he's smoking a whole hog). My advice is to ignore the face paint, and I agree it should not be called war paint. You may later learn that it's a way of inspiring unity or an attempt to coax your spirit to get along with theirs. There are a thousand possibilities so don't assume the worst. Continue your even-handed discipline throughout the plant, follow the contract to the letter and have someone other than yourself document and thoroughly investigate the discrimination claim. You'll be well served by having that investigation done well and professionally packaged, and without your influence. You're only one of the persons to be interviewed. If necessary have an outside source perform that investigation. When you're dealing with the possible triad of racial/ethnic/national origin discrimination, a union contract and potential religious discrimination, contracting out the investigation is chicken-feed. And if you do slip up and insinuate to the investigator your notion that this is war paint or make other comments along that line, you WILL likely be leaned on for perceptive discrimination.





Note: The preceeding is my personal opinion and has no value beyond that. Although it may be 'sorta offensive' or 'indeed offensive' to someone out there, it is offered without regard to that possibility. Should you find yourself alarmed by my post, you may privately mail me to protest or you may alert the principal's office. x:-)

lynn2008

Great advice from everyone.

Having been raised in Oklahoma and with close relatives whom are Native Americans, face painting has been/is used to communicate to others anything from the equivalent of "My sign is Capricorn" to "You're dead meat!".

It is safe to ask the individual the meaning of his markings if you have heard through sources he has indicated it is for intimidation or signaling of bad intentions. Go into this prepared for the proable retorts, and if he says it means nothing, just say, "Thank you.", document and move on.

If it is meant to intimidate, it should be dealt with accordindly.

It seems you should run your plan by your supevisor first.

Good Luck!

Crout

So if I worked for your company and came in one day made up like Gene Simmons of KISS, you're not going to confront me because you also allow women to wear makeup? I find that hard to believe, but if you're going to allow your employees to paint their faces I guess it makes sense. And the KISS thing is just an example. Personally I would have a half-blue and half-white face for Penn State.

SMace

The Kiss situation is different from the one we are talking about. He levels a discrimination accusation and then puts on face paint. He was baiting her to make a potential mistake. I don't know if you can legally make him take it of, it's debatable. But, I'm sure he was waiting for that and could quite conceivably have an attorney waiting by the phone. She was better of ignoring it, because my guess was when she didn't take the bait he would stop. That seems to be what happened.

Paul in Cannon Beach

I definitely agree with Don that you should turn the investigation over to someone else at this point since you are a player in all this.

I don't know that I would ignore the face paint. In these days of workplace violence, any form of aggression or percieved threat of aggression deserves an immediate and thorough response.

Crout

> As management we have decided NOT to say anything since we allow makeup to be worn (although normally by women) but I'm not quite sure where to go with this.


My little KISS example is based on this statement.