Can't wait to fire this guy
Carey
143 Posts
I'm working on a termination of an employee that I've been dying to fire! He's on a written warning for viewing porn at work (questionable as to whether illegal child porn or not - they sure look under 18 to me) and is currently having an amount deducted each payperiod for personal charges to his company credit card that he wasn't able to pay. That credit card was cancelled, but apparently he also had quite a large limit on his company purchasing card - that bill is paid directly by the company and the employee goes in and reconciles the charges (to a project, client, his own dept, etc.). Apparently, he had been using that purchasing card for monthly personal purchases and never reconciled so the charges hit his dept each month (manager didn't notice). Purchasing finally gets fed up and notifies HR. We went back a year and the amount is several thousand dollars. We're definitely terminating, but the question is - would you deal with the money he's basically stolen as theft and notify the police (not sure what they would do)? or sue him (not sure legal would want to do this)? Waiting for our attorneys to return from an out of town meeting, but wondering how you guys would handle.
Comments
As for the money he has used for personal reasons through the company credit card. Do you have clear guidelines that state the purpose and intent of this card, and what that consequences are if this is violated? But, even if this is not in written format, as long as you have proof that he has been charging items for personal use you can terminate. However, what has been yur past practice, how do you know that someone else is not doing the same thing and you have not caught him? NOW... the issue of the porn, does your company have securities in place to detect inappropriate access with the company PC's. If not get them in.
In the last year we went through similar situations. The first, in the process f investigating a theft, we discover several employees missuse of the cell phones assigned to them. We consulted with our attorney and we terminated. With respect with the porn, the FBI contacted us to let us know that someone in one of our facilities was accessign porn sites (kitty porn) It has taken us three months to catch this prson, because we did not have the propper securities with in our computer system. We contacted our attorney, and his recomendation was cooperate with the FBI, et them take the first step. If it was one of our employees, once caught by the FBI we could make our move. (Be carefull with this, you can ruin a persons life if yor ducks are not all in a row on this one-BIG liability for the company)
This last weekend we caught the person, he used to work for us many years ago, no one knew he had a master key that he was still using to gain entry intoour plant during times were the plant was closed.
I say, get him for the use of the card and if you want recoup the money, you have to take him to small claims court. You can not decuct what he owes from his last check. Terminate for grossmisconduct, he will not be eligible for COBRA nor for rehire.
Your lawyers are the best people to talk to. They will guide you through the best way to handle this. The company should be able to press charges. I hope everything works out.
BTW, why didn't you terminate him when he had the porn & the credit card charges?
Kathi
I would not want this guy working for my company any longer. If you can afford it, take the hit and fire him. If the money is substantial, advise him that you will be filing charges against him. If he is convicted, he will have to pay restitution.
As far as the one about the cell phone usage, you need to make the payroll deduction large enough to "hurt". Don't allow them to pay $10 or $15 a pay period. This will not deter this type of behavior. Make sure you put a policy in place that abuse of cell phone may lead to revoking of cell phone and or termination of employment.
Finally, you state that the manager didn't notice that there was not a reconciliation of the charges. Why not? The fact that the manager let the situation get out of hand should not be overlooked.
The first employee allowed his spouse to use the corporate card to shop at the best stores in the area, because she was depressed. He thought this would make her feel batter. When he was confronted he agreed to pay back the personal charges, then filed bankruptcy two weeks later. So we only got a fraction of the money owed. We couldn't terminate based on the opinion of our corporate attorneys.
The second employee was working out of town. His supervisor asked me to monitor the spending, because it went up sharply when this employee joined the group. During my initial sit down with the employee I noted their were several charges to a 'limo' service, sometimes 3-4 times per day. When I asked him about this, he said there were no taxicabs in the state of Arizona. Needless to say I did some checking and found out this 'limo' service did not offer transportation, but it was an escort service. This employee was treating his fellow workers to rides of a different kind. When I had all of the information to confront him he still denied it. I told him we had contacted the ladies who had completed the charge slips and they were able to describe him in great detail. The gig was up and he did end up paying back the $19,500.00 charges for the rides.
In both cases we should have terminated, but didn't. The individual in the first story went on to steal from the company a year later. However our corporate credit card agreement was improved to close the loopholes and help us get the money back.
I guess my advise would be if you terminate them, you will have a devil of a time getting the money back, and in your case I don't think you want to keep him. Please update this post and let us know what happens!
Someone else mentioned the problem with the supervisor - do not let that go. That supervisor is your first line of defense and needs to understand that these responsibilities are important.
maybe you better have a good replacement hired , aboard and up and running- so that the clients stay happy and don't take a lot of business elsewhere.
Chari
I found out this morning he has just about paid off the previous TWO Amex "overages" totalling about $5,500 (his balance is $300 now). All of that happened and the payroll deductions were set up without HR knowing about it. I imagine his manager did, but now he has a new one. This latest Amex issue was brought up by purchasing, but only after a long time of him not reconciling the charges. It's a Purchasing issue since the charges are not easily identifiable by a manager on the reports they get each month. Purchasing needs to do a better job of identifying and following up on these sorts of charges. We do have his signed acknowledgement when he got the card that it was not for personal use and violation could result in termination. We are terminating as soon as we can get his final checks cut, but will ask him to agree to let us withhold his final pay and we will agree not to pursue legal action (small claims court and criminal prosecution). If not, we'll have to give him his pay and I will get to take a trip to Small Claims Court.
You are all right - even if we couldn't get the money back, we (or at least I) want him out of here. His manager is still wishy-washy on the subject of termination (but we didn't give him a choice) because he's "such a creative talent." There have been other issues (charging a client for time when I'm certain he was here looking at porn on Sundays) that the manager chose to ignore because of his "talent."
I don't understand your process. Are you saying taht your company, or perhaps your state, provides a hearing in front of the board prior to termination? Or is this a policy for firing exempt employees? Is Illinois an "at will" state?
Just curious,
Sam
I'm trying to suppress my sympathy - he's got six kids (good Mormon).
Stay strong, and consider having his supervisor in the office as a witness.
I live in Mesa, AZ, home to one of two temples in the state. We indeed have a high Mormon population in the city. And those that I know would hardly call this guy a good Mormon - or a good anything for that matter.
FIRST PORN VISIT! What on earth is that about? What kind of business are you in? I can't think of many businesses that looking at porn would be bonafide business usage of the company's IT system.
Stealing is stealing--nearly $5500 of inappropriate credit card charges is probably a felony--I would have pursued charges.
And, yes of course I was joking about the "good" mormon comment. He is Mormon (he gave generously to BYU using company money), but I don't think anyone would consider him to be good.
I don't think it's necessary for us to debate what's inappropriate. You read way too much in between the lines to come up with the driving force behind my actions, but I appreciate your comments.
A responsible decision would have been to terminate the employee quietly a long time ago. I think you will see that as a majority opinion in all of the posts. x:-)