Need Opinions - Manager Theft

MHarris

What to do????
A twenty year manager with our company was caught stealing funds that should have been credited back to the company on a purchase of materials. He completed a form that he would accept this "rebate" in cash and signed his name and social security number to it. At first he was very defensive in his admittance of it but later he was very remorseful. He was suspended for one full week pending a decision on his status with the company and required to payback the sum of money.

The dilemma is where to draw the line with theft in a company. Do you fire someone you thought was a dedicated employee for stealing over $1,000 - a twenty year employee at that! The owners are concerned about making an example and what precedence this will set for any future violations. If they decide to let him continue his employment,will they ever be able to trust him?

Any opinions on what you would do or have done in a situation like this. Are there any specific issues that you think we need to address with this?

ray a

Immediate termination. Make your decision based on principle, not the dollar amount or the seniority of the ee, otherwise you end up risking discrimination. Last week we terminated a 2 year employee for willful destruction of company property - it amounted to probably less than $20 worth of damage. Suppose a 20 year ee does the same thing and we don't terminate, we could be sending the wrong message.

LFernandes

I agree with Ray. Immediate termination.

My question to you now would be, "Is this the first time he's stolen funds from you".

LFernandes

Whatever

I agree. A theft is a theft is a theft. What he did was blatent and cannot be ignored.

Don D

I agree with the advice given; however, it is up to the owners of your company as to where to draw the line and what action to take with this employee. Giving him one more chance could be either the best decision the owner's ever made...or the worst.

marc

Did you ever ask a traffic officer not to write you a ticket. They tell you that even though you were only going a few miles over the posted limit, they know this is just the time they caught you!

While there can be extenuating circumstances, and an ee given a second chance might be a grateful and productive ee, the discriminatin risks and the mixed message that gets sent is not worth it. Terminate.

Pork

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 09-23-03 AT 02:44PM (CST)[/font][p]"Dandy Don" has done it again, back away from the issue and turn it over to the owners. I bet most owners would give the manager a 2nd chance, but with considerable admission of his wrong doing to the company; a letter of formal apology might just set the record straight for another 20 years of vested service without another character flaw appearing. May he too have a Blessed day and so with the owners.

I have seen worse in my HR years; but none are so dirty as a thief who comes in the night, with the intent to do continuous harm.

Who has not been caught with the hand in the cook jar? or told a white lie, but a lie still! A thief is a thief, is a thief, is a thief regardless of the amount, what is most important is the manager's sole!!! How big is the heart of the owners?

PORK

JAMES PLEASE UNCLICK MY CHECK HERE FOR THE NUMEROUS ALERTS TO NEW OR DIFFERENT THREADS. I CHOOSE TO MOVE ON, THERE IS NO SAVING THIS SOLE! PORK

lnelson

Ask yourself if this had been an ee who has only been with the company for a short time and was caught in same scenario what would you do and follow that? Like the other posts state senority should not be the issue. If you give him another chance be prepared to have to do it for others in future.

Betty I_O

I agree with the respondents . . . theft is theft. You have proven he did commit the offense, and he has confessed. That he paid back the money does not alter the fact that he violated the trust and confidence of your employer by stealing from them. If you allow this person to return to work with no apparent penalty, others may get the idea that it's okay to help themselves to whatever. Terminate him!!

marc

One more thing, I forgot to add on my earlier post, you might want to consider filing a police report as well. I know it seems harsh, but you open yourself up to discrimination claims and inconsistency claims if you would do it in one situation and not in this one. Just something to consider.

San Francisco

I would have to question how dedicated an employee is who will steal over $1000 regardless of length of service. However, I would agree that the owners will need to determine the acceptable level of theft they are willing to absorb. Whatever level is acceptable for a manager must be acceptable for all and $1000 seems rather high. Being a retail store, we have lots of big and little goodies around from cosmetics to consumable items that some clerks and cashiers feel free to take. We have a zero tolerance for theft and will terminate for dollars.

Good luck.

Elizabeth

Balloonman

FIRE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Theft is theft. Does not matter. At my last employer I caught a 24 year employee, very high level who took two drill bits for work he was doing on a new home he was building. The company store was just about to have a sale, so inventory was just done, one of the people who did the inventory noticed the items missing and reported it. Total value, less than $50.00, and these were items given to us by a vendor. Had he asked for them, his boss or the person in charge of the store would have given them to him.
But he stole them, once a thief, always a thief. He was terminated. In a past life we terminated someone who stole a $0.35 cent bag of chips. A thief is a thief, does not matter tenure, or the value of the item.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman

Hunter1

I vote with the majority. Had a 26 year working foreman with the keys to everything, probably the most trusted employee in the department. We received, anonymously, a picture of him pumping gas into his personal vehicle from a City facility. Had him in, he swore that it was the only time, on a Friday, payday, he was short of money and it was his intent to pay for the gas. During his one week suspension, we received more pictures, in different seasons doing the same thing, and threatening to 'go to the press'. Terminated him for dishonesty and all offenses but the initial one, and learned my lesson. Theft is theft, and demands termination.

Leslie

We terminated a 8 year employee for walking through our buffet eating food - we caught him greasy handed with bacon. Not only was it theft but it was also unsanitary. After that we found out he was walking through the kitchen on a regular basis acting like an inspector taking food in there. Grand total in the scheme of things...maybe $10. That's not the point. Theft is theft.

mbeam

Also interesting that he did not bring this to your attention - question to pose to the owners is that would this have ever been discovered? Once he did this - what are the chances that he wouldn't do it again especially if he didn't think he would be caught?

celeste

I agree with everyone else. You are setting a precedence that will be thrown in your face later should you find that a less senior employee is stealing. Here's a thought...what if that employee is in a protected class.......

Whatever

There is no protected class for theft.

celeste

"Here's a thought...what if that employee is in a protected class......."

I meant what if the newer employee that you do term is a protected class. I realize that theft is termination for cause, I just wanted to clarify that if you do not term the manager then you better be careful if there is type incident happens later with possibly another employee (possibly in a protected class, you can find yourself in hot water.

Joe HR

I have to agree with the others. Theft is theft and the employee should be terminated. I know from experience the problems which can arise from not firing a longer term employee for theft and then trying to fire another employee for a similar amount, but a short tenure with the company. This was in a politcal environment and politics came into play, so I was not allowed to terminate the first individual. The state agency is still fighting the law suit, but I got smart and moved to a less political atmosphere.
FIRE, FIRE, FIRE, immediately.

dmartenson

My question is this - why would this particular employee be used "as an example" for other employees? I am sure the theft was done in private, the discovery was probably made in private and the discipline should be done in private. No one else in the company should have to know (or have need to know) or have examples made to them, unless the employer chooses to announce the theft and subsequent punishment to all.

I am not saying he should not be terminated, but "made an example of"? I would personally rather not go there.

Balloonman

When I worked at a large retailer, when a person was caught stealing he preferred having the person taken out by the police in handcuffs. While I typically agree discipline should be done in private. The message that you steal you get fired, or worse is a good message to send.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman

marc

Making an example of an employee is distasteful, but the message it sends is certainly useful. I worked for a large ski resort in Colorado some years ago when we caught an ee stealing dollars by altering credit card receipts and then pocketing an equal amount of cash. Books balanced for awhile, but as soon as customers objected to the charges, it all came out. We did a very public investigation, in part to send a strong message to our 1200 plus work force that we strongly prosecute crime. Everyone got the message.

Pork

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 09-23-03 AT 01:42PM (CST)[/font][p]JAMES: CLOSE THIS SUBJECT OUT, THE "DIRTY __STARD" HAS BEEN KILLED 20 TO 1; THERE IS NO HR "WITH HEART IN THESE POSTING" FOR AN EE STANDING BEFORE US WITH A 20 YEAR, ONE CHARACTER FLAW PERSONALITY, AND A PLEA FOR FORGIVENESS! NAIL HIM TO THE CROSS FOR HE SPEAKS OF THOSE AROUND US WHO HAVE NO FAULTS AND ARE PURE AS THE WHITE FLAKES OF SNOW!!!

I'M OUT OF HERE, GOT TO GO PRAY FOR THE LIKES OF MY PROFESSIONAL BRETHEN & EAT MORE PORK!!!

PORK

MY GOODNESS ANOTHER ONE GOT IN BEFORE I COULD GET THIS LITTLE POSTING ON-BOARD; NOW IT IS 21 TO 1!

Crout

Fire him immediately. Now it's 22 to 1. Keep in mind that's probably not the only money he's taken down through the years.

cebudragonlady

Somewhere down the line : After this man is fired, do you have to accurately respond when another company is seeking a reference and asking you to state very particularly why this man was let go?

Chari

MHarris

This could be opening up a whole new can of worms but we are going to allow him the opportunity to resign. Our industry is very closely knit and we do not want to damage his chances of seeking employment elsewhere. We do believe he is remorseful, however, we are choosing to take the hard line on this. In this case I do not feel that we are putting other employers at risk.

This has been a tough decision for our "family-owned" business but we were learning toward the termination all along and everyone's comments here helped to cement the difficult choice we had to make.

And Pork...we are forgiving and very much aware of our own frailties...but this day and age we often have no other choice but to take the hard line.

Thanks again for all of the input.

Pork

MHarris: Believe it or not I knew well that the owners would take the high road and do what is right. Stealing is one of those sins that just sticks in the craw and we just can't seem to come to the full degree of playing the God like role and totally forgive those among us who really should know better!

PORK

and now we are out of here!

Tish

I agree with the consenses. Terminate - he stole from the company. Was it the first time or only the first time he was caught? Will he do it again?

One of the things I appreciate about my position in HR - it is my job to give the pros and cons of a situation and the legal aspects, and the legal risk factors of managements choices. It is their dicision to make.

lnelson

MHarris -
If this ee was with the company for so long and it being family owned wouldn't you think that he coud have asked the owners for whatever the item(s)were and made payments to the company instead of going this route. In my opinion coming from a family owned company anyone can ask the owners for anything and arrangements would be made to accomodate as much as possible, so this is probably not the first time he has stolen from the company but the only time caught and that is why he is showing signs of remorse.

JUST MY .02 cents worth

That's it from me.