There are no accommodations for Christians unless you count the PAID holidays (Holy days) at Christmas, and until just a few years ago, Easter. I just don't believe that we Christians are the trod upon victims of modern-day society we sometimes portray ourselves to be.
I don't think we Christians are victims and I hope you didn't read my post as portraying us to be.
However, I wanted to point out that in the government's efforts to rid the workplace of religion harassment or discrimination - it appears as though not everyone enjoys the "protection" that others enjoy.
Thank you Crout. I agree. If you want to wear a hat to work or wear a dot on your forehead, join a religion that requires it. Like I have said before actions speak louder than words or symbols. If you want to wear a cross go ahead but don't send me home for wearing a nose ring. Rules and policies need to be applied equally.
I, like Paul, work for a religious based non-profit. However, we provide very public services and I work hard to keep everything neutral. While our Executive Director has a collection of crosses on her wall and I have a Bible on my bookshelf (among many other HR and management books), no faith issues are involved in our employment practices. However, we are trying to address more character and ethical issues in our hiring process.
Several months ago at our Directors Retreat, I was asked to explore a "corporate" means of religious expression. Not based on Christianity, but open. Comments were made about allowing employees a venue for expression at times like 9/11 or when our building was broken into this spring or when a co-worker is seriously ill. I know I have heard of some large employers having some spiritually focused employment initiatives. Have any of you any experience with something like this?
Are you talking about the company controlling a process or venue whereby employees are 'encouraged' to express themselves spiritually? Or are you talking about a physical place like a small chapel/room at a hospital where anyone of any faith or none at all can go and have peaceful, quiet time? I would first wonder what the objective and ultimate motivation is for him suggesting this. I'm not questioning his motive, just wondering what it is.
I'm not sure I know Don! I know they don't want to control something, more of a make something available. It's what the something is that is unclear. I believe it stems from a meeting that our ED and a program director went to where someone was discussing employees outlets for stress in the workplace, Sept 11th, etc. The fact that we are a Christian based organization seemed to birth the thought that we should be providing something to meet that need - if desired by the employee.
When I first heard the Little League Pledge, I was surprised to hear the word "God" in it. I guess that orginization hasn't been targeted yet. Maybe I shouldn't bring it up!
My son has played soccer for the Y (YMCA) and they still pray before games. (Obviously, Young Men's Christian Association) But, it was nice to hear it and I personally think it helped reinforce good sportmanship, fair play etc.
Our schools around here pray before football and basketball games. Of course, we are part of the buckle of the bible belt.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-19-03 AT 01:30PM (CST)[/font][p]Speaking of Little League, for some 40 years it's been called Dixie Youth Baseball in parts of my area. Now the organization has been arm-twisted into changing it since somebody somewhere decided that resurrected images of an Old South. The Dixie Chics have already messed in their whiskey. Dixie Cups are next. The Dixie Darlins, dance squad at Southern Mississippi will be renamed in two years, Colonel Reb, the hundred year old gentleman who served gallantly as Ole Miss' mascot was eliminated with this football year, as was any song about the South. The song Dixie, a Southern battgle hymn, has been banned but The Battle Hymn Of The Republic, the North's fight song in the same conflict, remains and that's puzzling. Crosses on any government property in our capitol city are banned but the largest high rise building in the county has a lighted one at Christmas that must be 150 feet tall. People pitch in to pay the electric bill during the Christmas season. The city crew in my town cannot be used to put up the state flags on power poles but they are allowed to put up the flags of Sweden of which this town has a 'sister city' adopted, whatever that is. Mississippi Valley State University, a traditionally black university here is being badgered to change their hundred year old team name, The Delta Devils, because somebody apparently thinks it carries a negative religious connotation. Same for the Alcorn Braves and Mississippi College Choctaws. Still surviving are the Delta State University Fighting Okra, which nobody has figured out yet promotes the use of chemicals on agricultural products, I reckon. All over town there are small cardboard signs that say, 'Take your children to church this week. They need and deserve it'. It won't be long before the ACLU or someone else will attack those as offensive and will claim it is cruel and unusual for people to have to view them while driving down public streets. I wonder which group might be offended by HANDBASKETS because that's what the country is going to hell in. As long as you can do so legally, celebrate whatever it is you hold dear. But be prepared to hide it under your bed.
Wow!! How awesome to see how many Christian believers are out in the HR world. Don't mean to offend any non-believers, just encouraged after a rough day!
I truly believe our work is our ministry, whether or not today's society allows us to express ourselves the way we would want, God will still use us in key ways.
This web-site gives some great tips for Christian believers out in the workforce.
The same can be said for the reverse. It is Christian group that wants to change the name of the Delta Devils. This is a two way street. Religion is a personal thing and should be shown by acts of kindness not by displaying symbols. There are many things that make up who we are. One way may be body piercings and many many many of you would not allow that in the work place. So whats the difference between wearing a cross or a nose ring. They are both personal expressions and both could offend potential customers, its just that one is more "socially" acceptable. Judges are saying this is all or nothing.
As far as the ten commandments at the court house, no way!!!!! Judges are sworn to uphold the law which includes seperation of church and state. If they don't they should be fired. If any of us had an employee who neglected a major part of their job or continued to violate policy, we would all fire them. Whats the difference here.
To the original post, you have the right to have a bible at work, you work for a religious organization but coming from a private organization, that would not be acceptable for HR here.
"To the original post, you have the right to have a bible at work, you work for a religious organization but coming from a private organization, that would not be acceptable for HR here."
Scottor,
I appreciate your honest comment. Could you clarify a little? Do you mean that I couldn't have my Bible at work at all or just not on my desk? Could I read one in the lunchroom? I am really curious where you draw the line.
If a co-worker of the same faith as mine, came to my office and asked me to pray with them because they were going through a difficult time, would that be ok?
I do these things all the time here but I have no sense of what is allowable in the secular environment.
Paul: I too am interested in this clarification. Of course none of us could deny an employee the right to possess a Bible (or any other book) at work or to have it on one's desk for that matter. That would be religious discrimination.
If you want to bring a bible to work and keep it in your desk or read it during lunch or breaks that would be acceptable. If an employee who you know is of the same religion asked you to pray for them that is okay. Where the issue for me would be if you were going around telling others without their asking that you would pray for them or reading bible verse to them. In the private and public sector religion should be limited to personal time and not incorporated into policies and procedures. This is when we begin to step on others religious beliefs. I hope I answered your questions.
I was surprised with Scottorr's statement about not being able to have a bible in a non-religious place of employment. I don't think most employers would have a problem with that - maybe it should be kept in a desk, but I'm not sure that is necessary. Like you summarized in one of your posts "as long as it does not become or appear to be coercive, either directly or indirectly. There should be no pressure or value to being of a certain faith," etc.
My hope is that the majority of people believe that no matter what religious belief someone has, that being a a good person - kind,honest, etc. - is what is most important.
MWILD31 said something I also thought was interesting:
"I don't mind if people wear crosses or other religious symbols on their person or in their work space - as long as it doesn't offend a co-worker & that those same employees don't complain when someone of a different faith than theirs wears/displays their own religious items. This policy is consistent and firmly held within our organization. "
The problem is that there are people on both sides of the religious fence who want to push buttons and press the issue whether its a supervisor who implies that attending his bible study will help get you a promotion or the office atheist who fumes at the slightest mention of God or even George Burns.
I think there has to be a "reasonable" standard that overrules the whims and wishes of any hyper sensitive or overly zealous employees.
I so agree, but there's that word "reasonable" again. Who's to say what is? I think you and I agree on what is, as do most of the other Forum posters, and it seems to me that the majority of people do. But it also seems that the "unsilent minority" cause the majority of problems. It's crazy; the courts are crazy. Oh, we could go on and on... I think I'll go home now and try to coerce my reasonableness on my kids.
Stay tuned: I'm watching the 4am news. It reminds us that tonight at midnight is the deadline for the Alabama judge to drag the ten commandments out of the federal building or state house, whichever it is. The judge who put them there at personal cost says the display represents "The very foundation of right and wrong and the backbone of American Justice". The other side, the court that said they must go, says the display represents the State showing a religious preference. I personally would have no aversion to every one of the earth's religions, and those on other planets as well, having a similar display in the courthouse, lined up down the hallway, side by side, like in a museum. And to round out the display, they could include one fabricated by Larry Flynt. I think it would be interesting and none of them would offend me or make me squirm.
This same judge that you are talking about has said in many of his rulings, according to the bible....the last I checked no judge is God......he neglected to mention the part of the bible that says though shall not judge others. This is my problem with the guy. He can have his chambers wallpapered with the 10 commandments for all I care as long as he leaves his religious convictions at the courtroom door and out of his rulings.
Just to add a little perspective to the Ten Commandments battle in Alabama I would like to point out a couple of things. The "judge" in question is not a lawyer. He was a small local judge who got a lot of publicity from the fact that he had a small plaque of the ten Commandments hanging in his courtroom and people took exception to it. He parlayed this into election to higher office where he promptly used OUR money to construct that monument. He is now proposing to spend more of OUR money to keep it there. He is most likely aiming for the the Governor's or Mayor's race (in Birmingham) and although I hate to cast aspersions on the motives of a politician, we may wonder how much actual conviction is behind his stand. Please bear in mind that his position is that you need obey only the laws you think you should obey. And once again the state of Alabama has made the national news as an object of ridicule. (Last time our Lieutenant Governor relieved himself into a cup on television.)
The situation that scott brought up about having a Bible at work is one that I've dealt with recently. We had a supervisor who brought in a Bible, which was fine, but insisted on leaving it open on his desk, in a highly public area, and turned around so his employees could view it. I work in a major urban area and we employ people of many faiths who were offended by what this supervisor was doing. Gee, I wonder what his agenda was? Anyway, he threatened legal action when we asked him to simply keep the Bible in his desk and read it on his own time. Now, I would like to ask all of you HR professionals, including you, sandi......who was "reasonable" in this case and who was not?
Wow gone part of a day and this one almost doubled! Crout, he was being the unreasonable one in my book. As for the judge, I love it. Someone is at least taking a stand. I did see that he ran for office as the 10 Commandments Judge, so it is not like this is a recent crusade he picked up. I believe it was in this thread some wise individual pointed out that the whole seperation of church and state had to do with not having a state religion.............we seemed to have forgetten that. They say they are going to fine the state, which I find is funny, as "In God We Trust" is on the back of our money. I wonder what the lawyers would think when I have had employees in with significant personal issues............and I asked them if they have talked to a priest/pastor/clergy, do they have someone along that line to discuss things with. I don't push one religion, but have recommended they talk to someone. My $0.02 worth. DJ The Balloonman
I would hope by reading what I've written you would know I think the supervisor was NOT reasonable. There's really not much I dislike more than someone telling me what I should believe. I had a friend in college who tried to convince me to accept God, because if I didn't, He would not save me. What kind of God would base his "saving" someone without looking at someone's entire belief system and behaviors? I told her once that I had felt she had been very rude to one of our professors, and that if she proclaimed herself Christian, she would not treat another individual as she had. At least she had the grace to listen and understand what I was saying. NEVER should an employer force their beliefs on someone else. If someone wants to pray, go ahead. If you choose not to pray, it should not be forced upon you.
And Scottor, your boss' behavior was despicable. I could feel my blood pressure going up as I read your post. Can anyone tell me that's the way a "good Christian" acts? I wholeheartedly believe that every person is entitled to their own religious beliefs and I am very open to listen to their point of view. I don't have a strong religious conviction, but I still think I practice what anyone who has great faith should - I try to be nice to others, I don't lie, cheat or steal; I work hard, and I try not to be judgemental of others, etc. I teach my children the same.
I consider myself a consersative, but I am also liberal in that as long as people aren't hurting others, I don't care if they believe or act differently than I.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-20-03 AT 09:53AM (CST)[/font][p]Until you have truely been the victim of religious or any other discrimination you can not say these people are over reacting or that they are getting special treatment.
You would not have to worry about these laws and judges if everyone treated everyone else equally and kindly. It's easy for us to sit back and say we would never discriminate, but unfortunately there are people out there that do and will discriminate. That is why these laws, and what seem like extreme legal decisions are being made. I have been the victim of religious discrimination. I will not go into the details but it involved an evangelical christian boss and myself. I could have sued and easily won but I decided to take the lesson I learned, be kind and just moved on. Eventually her convictions caught up with her and she was terminated about a year after I left.
I have decided to tell my story so you will know that descrimnation and harassment is still out there. I am a practicing Buddhist. On my first day of work my new boss asked all of us to pray for a fellow man. I just bowed my head and kept my mouth shut. After about a month my boss asked why I didn't pray out loud. I told her I was a buddhist. Her immedaite response was that I was going to hell. From that point on she made in her mission to save me. Leaving prayers on my desk and making comments to co-workers. The day I decided to move on, I got a flat tire. When I called my boss to say I was running a few minutes behind because of the flat tire, she said "what do you expect, you worship the devil". I then knew I had to leave.
This has been a really lively discussion, with many great points being made on either side of the issue!
I am a Christian, I keep a Bible at work (in my desk drawer), and don't often discuss my faith on the job. However, it's amazing the number of times an employee comes to me and asks me to keep them or their family in my prayers - maybe it just shows in the way I behave.
What I can't stand is the blatant hypocrisy I've encountered where religion at work is concerned. My previous employer was in northwest Iowa in Dutch country. The entire office was practically wallpapered in scripture passages, Sunday work was totally out of the question, and management meetings often included prayers for our customers, vendors, etc. However, the president of the company referred to the workforce in general as a bunch of f***ing losers, he fired our new marketing person when her young husband had a heart attack because he was afraid she'd miss too much work, he berated and belittled his staff in front of coworkers. It doesn't matter what's displayed on the walls - it's what's in the heart that counts!
Scottorr, that's truly an appalling story; for you not to sue showed remarkable restraint.
Next time somebody tells you you're going to hell, I suggest quoting Mark Twain: "Go to heaven for the climate, go to hell for the company." Works for me.
I have been following this thread and I have learned a lot. The problem is not with the majority of Americans who are both religious and Christian. The problem, and believe me it is very real, with a very vocal minority. However, lets look at a few issues from the non-Christian point of view. When the normal work week was six days, if you didn't work on Saturday, you didn't have a job. In some parts of this country, you cannot shop on Sunday because that is the Sabbath. However, my Sabbath is on Saturday. A few months ago, I went to industry conference in which the minister blessed the men (strike one) in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. You get off for your religious holidays with pay. I have to use a personal or vacation day. Think of all the press coverage for the ministers who condemned the Muslim religion and, therefore all Muslims, at the beginning of the war in Iraq. Think about how it feels to walk into Synagogue past someone who is shouting that you are going to hell. Think about how it feels when someone will not work with you because they believe you killed Christ. The vast majority of Americans are tolerant. However, both sides have a way to go to true understanding.
I agree with Whatever. Being raised Southern Baptist, I was in church every time the doors opened, usually being drug along by my parents. All we were taught about Jews was that they did not believe in Jesus. Wow! That damned them for sure immediately in the eyes of us little 10 year olds! It took me a few years to learn that there was more to Jewish people than that. Shame on my Baptist teachers, non-teachers that they were in that case. Jewish people and Chinese and Italian owned all the stores and restaurants and most of the farming operations where I grew up so I learned association early on, thankfully. Anytime I attend a large gathering it's usually kicked off by a prayer from a Baptist. I always think what it must be like to not be a Christian and to bow your head in prayer that ends in "In Jesus' name". Even though I was raised in that strict venue, I think anybody called upon to lead a prayer in a multidenominational gathering ought to have enough respect for people to have something more generic. If they can't, pass up the invitation to lead the prayer. I had a department head once who lauded the fact that he/she attended a night class on 'Management by Biblical Principle' and made all his/her decisions on that basis. He/She was the most contemptable, dishonest, conniving, manipulative, fraud I have ever known. It is hard for me to understand how he/she could claim that all of his/her actions were Biblically based. We have one department head here who comes in early enough to read his Bible at his desk and he makes some notes and goes down his daily prayer list and this is a daily, quiet, unobtrusive routine in his private office. But, he is the biggest mover/shaker/hustler in the office and puts his Bible aside after he finishes it and never would impose it on others unless you ask. But I would quit this job before I told him to take his Bible home or shove it in a drawer.
Don, I agree completely with your sentiments, but I bet you'd have a problem with that department head if his desk was in the middle of a shoproom floor and he was obviously displaying his Bible in order to convert a few infidels. That's the situation I was dealing with.
Comments
I don't think we Christians are victims and I hope you didn't read my post as portraying us to be.
However, I wanted to point out that in the government's efforts to rid the workplace of religion harassment or discrimination - it appears as though not everyone enjoys the "protection" that others enjoy.
Zanne
Several months ago at our Directors Retreat, I was asked to explore a "corporate" means of religious expression. Not based on Christianity, but open. Comments were made about allowing employees a venue for expression at times like 9/11 or when our building was broken into this spring or when a co-worker is seriously ill. I know I have heard of some large employers having some spiritually focused employment initiatives. Have any of you any experience with something like this?
Thanks for any input. Barbara
Clear as mud, right!
My son has played soccer for the Y (YMCA) and they still pray before games. (Obviously, Young Men's Christian Association) But, it was nice to hear it and I personally think it helped reinforce good sportmanship, fair play etc.
Our schools around here pray before football and basketball games. Of course, we are part of the buckle of the bible belt.
Zanne
I truly believe our work is our ministry, whether or not today's society allows us to express ourselves the way we would want, God will still use us in key ways.
This web-site gives some great tips for Christian believers out in the workforce.
[url]http://www.marketplace-network.org/[/url]
-RJS
As far as the ten commandments at the court house, no way!!!!! Judges are sworn to uphold the law which includes seperation of church and state. If they don't they should be fired. If any of us had an employee who neglected a major part of their job or continued to violate policy, we would all fire them. Whats the difference here.
To the original post, you have the right to have a bible at work, you work for a religious organization but coming from a private organization, that would not be acceptable for HR here.
Scottor,
I appreciate your honest comment. Could you clarify a little? Do you mean that I couldn't have my Bible at work at all or just not on my desk? Could I read one in the lunchroom? I am really curious where you draw the line.
If a co-worker of the same faith as mine, came to my office and asked me to pray with them because they were going through a difficult time, would that be ok?
I do these things all the time here but I have no sense of what is allowable in the secular environment.
Paul in Cannon Beach
I was surprised with Scottorr's statement about not being able to have a bible in a non-religious place of employment. I don't think most employers would have a problem with that - maybe it should be kept in a desk, but I'm not sure that is necessary. Like you summarized in one of your posts "as long as it does not become or appear to be coercive, either directly or indirectly. There should be no pressure or value to being of a certain faith," etc.
My hope is that the majority of people believe that no matter what religious belief someone has, that being a a good person - kind,honest, etc. - is what is most important.
Sandi
MWILD31 said something I also thought was interesting:
"I don't mind if people wear crosses or other religious symbols on their person or in their work space - as long as it doesn't offend a co-worker & that those same employees don't complain when someone of a different faith than theirs wears/displays their own religious items. This policy is consistent and firmly held within our organization. "
The problem is that there are people on both sides of the religious fence who want to push buttons and press the issue whether its a supervisor who implies that attending his bible study will help get you a promotion or the office atheist who fumes at the slightest mention of God or even George Burns.
I think there has to be a "reasonable" standard that overrules the whims and wishes of any hyper sensitive or overly zealous employees.
Paul in Cannon Beach
They say they are going to fine the state, which I find is funny, as "In God We Trust" is on the back of our money.
I wonder what the lawyers would think when I have had employees in with significant personal issues............and I asked them if they have talked to a priest/pastor/clergy, do they have someone along that line to discuss things with. I don't push one religion, but have recommended they talk to someone.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman
I would hope by reading what I've written you would know I think the supervisor was NOT reasonable. There's really not much I dislike more than someone telling me what I should believe. I had a friend in college who tried to convince me to accept God, because if I didn't, He would not save me. What kind of God would base his "saving" someone without looking at someone's entire belief system and behaviors? I told her once that I had felt she had been very rude to one of our professors, and that if she proclaimed herself Christian, she would not treat another individual as she had. At least she had the grace to listen and understand what I was saying. NEVER should an employer force their beliefs on someone else. If someone wants to pray, go ahead. If you choose not to pray, it should not be forced upon you.
And Scottor, your boss' behavior was despicable. I could feel my blood pressure going up as I read your post. Can anyone tell me that's the way a "good Christian" acts? I wholeheartedly believe that every person is entitled to their own religious beliefs and I am very open to listen to their point of view. I don't have a strong religious conviction, but I still think I practice what anyone who has great faith should - I try to be nice to others, I don't lie, cheat or steal; I work hard, and I try not to be judgemental of others, etc. I teach my children the same.
I consider myself a consersative, but I am also liberal in that as long as people aren't hurting others, I don't care if they believe or act differently than I.
You would not have to worry about these laws and judges if everyone treated everyone else equally and kindly. It's easy for us to sit back and say we would never discriminate, but unfortunately there are people out there that do and will discriminate. That is why these laws, and what seem like extreme legal decisions are being made. I have been the victim of religious discrimination. I will not go into the details but it involved an evangelical christian boss and myself. I could have sued and easily won but I decided to take the lesson I learned, be kind and just moved on. Eventually her convictions caught up with her and she was terminated about a year after I left.
I have decided to tell my story so you will know that descrimnation and harassment is still out there. I am a practicing Buddhist. On my first day of work my new boss asked all of us to pray for a fellow man. I just bowed my head and kept my mouth shut. After about a month my boss asked why I didn't pray out loud. I told her I was a buddhist. Her immedaite response was that I was going to hell. From that point on she made in her mission to save me. Leaving prayers on my desk and making comments to co-workers. The day I decided to move on, I got a flat tire. When I called my boss to say I was running a few minutes behind because of the flat tire, she said "what do you expect, you worship the devil". I then knew I had to leave.
I am a Christian, I keep a Bible at work (in my desk drawer), and don't often discuss my faith on the job. However, it's amazing the number of times an employee comes to me and asks me to keep them or their family in my prayers - maybe it just shows in the way I behave.
What I can't stand is the blatant hypocrisy I've encountered where religion at work is concerned. My previous employer was in northwest Iowa in Dutch country. The entire office was practically wallpapered in scripture passages, Sunday work was totally out of the question, and management meetings often included prayers for our customers, vendors, etc. However, the president of the company referred to the workforce in general as a bunch of f***ing losers, he fired our new marketing person when her young husband had a heart attack because he was afraid she'd miss too much work, he berated and belittled his staff in front of coworkers. It doesn't matter what's displayed on the walls - it's what's in the heart that counts!
Next time somebody tells you you're going to hell, I suggest quoting Mark Twain: "Go to heaven for the climate, go to hell for the company." Works for me.