Denise: I'm not a teacher-basher, as a matter of fact, I have both teachers and school administrators in my family. My perception is colored by what happens in WI, but here are some statistics that you might wish to be aware of:
Percentage by which the average teacher's wages exceed average worker's wages by state: #1 Pennsylvania 65.2% #5 Wisconsin 52.1% #22 New York 37.7% #37 Mississippi 31.1% #51 District of Columbia 2.9% As you can see, PA apparently values their teachers quite well.
Perhaps in your state the following does/doesn't happen for teachers: The employees make NO contribution to their health plan (Including dental and vision). The employer makes both the employer and employEE contribution to the state retirement system (10 - 12% total). Health insurance is extended beyond retirement at least to age 65, in some cases to death. The state teachers' union is currently spending hundreds of thousands of dollars extolling the merits of THEIR governor a year and a half before the next election. This same teachers' union is, I believe, the second highest spending unit for lobbying in the state.
i understand how frustrating it is to watch a group funded by taxpayer dollars to lobby for anything, especially when they seem to have a lot of money with which to lobby!
Hopefully, despite all of this the kids of WI are getting a good education and are being taught by caring teachers that are knowledgeable and enthusiastic.
I think teaching is one of the more important functions in our world. When one looks at the effectiveness of our teaching, it gives one reason to pause.
Since at least the early 90's, our high school graduation rate has averaged between 69% and 73%. A large percentage of those graduates are not prepared for either college or to enter our workforce. So how effective are our teachers?
We know more about the way the brain and different individuals learn than ever before. Yet that does not translate to effective teaching or effective learning. Todays students must be prepared for a complex world and must be ready to tackle more than one field of knowledge - yet so many are not ready.
We have two major approaches to eductation. Learning to do and learning to know. One prepares a student for more hands on work while the other prepares for college and extended learning.
I would not blame the teachers, or the NEA, or the system or the parents - but put them all together and we have a hugely bloated educational system that stumbles and bumbles it's way to graduating it's yearly 71% or ill-prepared or under prepared individuals despite the dedication of all involved.
Either Hunter1's survey is whacko or he's put a personal spin on it. Mississippi consistently ranks 49 or 50 in teacher pay. A teacher in this state with a BS degree and 35 years of experience makes about 39k. A beginning teacher, like a cop, makes about $25.5K. Now if those figures were household income or per capita, hell, half the damned state doesn't work and are on the dole.
At least 45 of the hourly production workers at this facility made over $60k last year with a twelfth grade education or less. We've got more Cadillac Escalades and Tahoes in this parking lot than some car dealerships.
What the survey Hunter quoted did not do was compare apples to apples. Had it compared a teacher with other professionals with BS or Masters degrees, the teacher would have sunk to the bottom of the stats in all but a handful of states.
And please spare me the bit about the three month vacation. Teachers down here work into June and start back the middle of August. I know one who spent four weeks this summer traveling around several states working in different industrial settings so she could share the experiences with her students. It was unpaid. I know 'cause she sleeps in the same house I do.
Certainly no intent for a personal spin. I, also, have an 'almost son-in-law' with a 12th grade education who works at Harley in production and made something around $100k last year, but there are a lot more employees at Wal-Mart and McDonalds who drag down the average. As my dad always said: "Figures don't lie, but liars figure".
I said all along that my view was colored by what happens in WI. Top of the page headline in this morning's Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel: "State's Pension Among the Best". The article goes on to say that Wisconsin public employees (including teachers) pay the least into their pension system in the country and have the second best pay-out. Pay isn't everything.
The problem in education isn't that teachers are overpaid....quite the opposite. The problem is that all the ancillary staff like custodians, and cafeteria workers ARE grossly overpaid. Get rid of those folks, contract out for their services and school districts would save a ton of money, which could then be used to compensate teachers as they should be compensated.
My apologies to any relatives of custodians or cafeteria workers, but I'm sorry, slopping food on a plate should NOT be a well-compensated career when school districts desperately need teachers, facilities, and materials.
Overpaid or underpaid does not change the fact that if our educational system was analyzed as a private investment opportunity - it would be never get funding.
It just does not get the results for the money that is sunk into it.
So perhaps a couple of those female teachers have decided to augment their meager salaries with the revenues from book sales associated with telling their salacious stories. It will only work for a while so the first ones "in" reap the rewards.
I don't know how you teach kids who don't seem to want to learn nor do their homework. My daughter is a first year teacher - 8th and 9th grade English at a middle school. The stories she tells about student behavior is something else, but I know that she is putting up with more than the usual because she is a rookie and the students know it. In one class of 30+ 8th graders, after several days of nothing but noise, she walked in, wrote six names on the board, sat down and said nothing. After awhile, a student say's "why is my name on the board". My daughter replied, "congratulations, you are one of six students who are passing my class."
Okay, Don -- there's one in every classroom. You are going into the corner right now!!
I liked Gillian's Story. And we know it is the truth -- of the five teachers in my immediate family, only one is remaining in teaching. For twenty years, my older sister's motto was that she had not met a child she could not teach. She was a born teacher with wonderful gifts. For the last ten years of her career she would shake her head and say that she was wrong -- she was meeting children who did not have anything in their heads with which to start the learning process; and the behavior of so many was so bad it was taking more out of her than she had to give to control them. Sad, sad, sad.
Part (and only part) of the problem is expectation. On the whole we expect too little of our kids. We've created ways to help them "feel" successful, even when they are failing miserably.
As a society, we've somehow decided that self-esteem and feeling good about yourself all the time is more important than the tangible contributions you're making.
Sometimes, the truth hurts and it's yucky...but it must be spoken. I've heard teachers try to find nice things to say about my step-son...but the harsh reality is that he is not booksmart. He has strengths, but he'll never be in the running for a Nobel Prize. And I'm OK with that. I would rather they approach this honestly, than sugar coat the obvious. However, somewhere along the way, parents lost touch and began to suffer from "not my kid" syndrome and the teachers and administrators are left to figure out what to do.
and don't even get me started on No Child Left Behind.
Dasher, you've been looking out the window again and have not been paying attention. I think I posted earlier that my bride is a 30+ year teacher. My daughter just became a school counselor (Egad!). My mother is a retired school teacher. All work or worked in what I call 'the combat zone' of inner city public schools.
And I knew it was Sinclair, not his English teaching daughter who commented "One who ARE passing". He recently worked in academecia for some years and knows better himself.
I will stand in the corner if you will pay attention.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot." Charlie Chaplin
Comments
Percentage by which the average teacher's wages exceed average worker's wages by state:
#1 Pennsylvania 65.2%
#5 Wisconsin 52.1%
#22 New York 37.7%
#37 Mississippi 31.1%
#51 District of Columbia 2.9%
As you can see, PA apparently values their teachers quite well.
Perhaps in your state the following does/doesn't happen for teachers: The employees make NO contribution to their health plan (Including dental and vision). The employer makes both the employer and employEE contribution to the state retirement system (10 - 12% total). Health insurance is extended beyond retirement at least to age 65, in some cases to death. The state teachers' union is currently spending hundreds of thousands of dollars extolling the merits of THEIR governor a year and a half before the next election. This same teachers' union is, I believe, the second highest spending unit for lobbying in the state.
OK, I'll get off my soapbox. :-?
i understand how frustrating it is to watch a group funded by taxpayer dollars to lobby for anything, especially when they seem to have a lot of money with which to lobby!
Hopefully, despite all of this the kids of WI are getting a good education and are being taught by caring teachers that are knowledgeable and enthusiastic.
I think teaching is one of the more important functions in our world. When one looks at the effectiveness of our teaching, it gives one reason to pause.
Since at least the early 90's, our high school graduation rate has averaged between 69% and 73%. A large percentage of those graduates are not prepared for either college or to enter our workforce. So how effective are our teachers?
We know more about the way the brain and different individuals learn than ever before. Yet that does not translate to effective teaching or effective learning. Todays students must be prepared for a complex world and must be ready to tackle more than one field of knowledge - yet so many are not ready.
We have two major approaches to eductation. Learning to do and learning to know. One prepares a student for more hands on work while the other prepares for college and extended learning.
I would not blame the teachers, or the NEA, or the system or the parents - but put them all together and we have a hugely bloated educational system that stumbles and bumbles it's way to graduating it's yearly 71% or ill-prepared or under prepared individuals despite the dedication of all involved.
I can't fix it, but something needs to change.
At least 45 of the hourly production workers at this facility made over $60k last year with a twelfth grade education or less. We've got more Cadillac Escalades and Tahoes in this parking lot than some car dealerships.
What the survey Hunter quoted did not do was compare apples to apples. Had it compared a teacher with other professionals with BS or Masters degrees, the teacher would have sunk to the bottom of the stats in all but a handful of states.
And please spare me the bit about the three month vacation. Teachers down here work into June and start back the middle of August. I know one who spent four weeks this summer traveling around several states working in different industrial settings so she could share the experiences with her students. It was unpaid. I know 'cause she sleeps in the same house I do.
I said all along that my view was colored by what happens in WI. Top of the page headline in this morning's Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel: "State's Pension Among the Best". The article goes on to say that Wisconsin public employees (including teachers) pay the least into their pension system in the country and have the second best pay-out. Pay isn't everything.
My apologies to any relatives of custodians or cafeteria workers, but I'm sorry, slopping food on a plate should NOT be a well-compensated career when school districts desperately need teachers, facilities, and materials.
It just does not get the results for the money that is sunk into it.
So perhaps a couple of those female teachers have decided to augment their meager salaries with the revenues from book sales associated with telling their salacious stories. It will only work for a while so the first ones "in" reap the rewards.
"...one who IS passing my class."
I liked Gillian's Story. And we know it is the truth -- of the five teachers in my immediate family, only one is remaining in teaching. For twenty years, my older sister's motto was that she had not met a child she could not teach. She was a born teacher with wonderful gifts. For the last ten years of her career she would shake her head and say that she was wrong -- she was meeting children who did not have anything in their heads with which to start the learning process; and the behavior of so many was so bad it was taking more out of her than she had to give to control them. Sad, sad, sad.
Part (and only part) of the problem is expectation. On the whole we expect too little of our kids. We've created ways to help them "feel" successful, even when they are failing miserably.
As a society, we've somehow decided that self-esteem and feeling good about yourself all the time is more important than the tangible contributions you're making.
Sometimes, the truth hurts and it's yucky...but it must be spoken. I've heard teachers try to find nice things to say about my step-son...but the harsh reality is that he is not booksmart. He has strengths, but he'll never be in the running for a Nobel Prize. And I'm OK with that. I would rather they approach this honestly, than sugar coat the obvious. However, somewhere along the way, parents lost touch and began to suffer from "not my kid" syndrome and the teachers and administrators are left to figure out what to do.
and don't even get me started on No Child Left Behind.
And I knew it was Sinclair, not his English teaching daughter who commented "One who ARE passing". He recently worked in academecia for some years and knows better himself.
I will stand in the corner if you will pay attention.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."
Charlie Chaplin
I can't believe I am questioning Don who writes part time and has such close relationships with teachers in his family. I better duck now. x:o