Employee died - offer CPR?

dwitt · January 2006

We are a manufacturing company. Recently, we had an employee suffer a heart attack while working on one of our production lines. The employee was discovered collapsed on a platform, we called 911. Our Safety coordinator ran to the scene and performed CPR until the paramedics arrived. Sadly enough, the employee had suffered such a massive heart attack, that he didn't make it.

This situation has had an enormous affect on my entire workforce. After all the grief debriefing sessions, OSHA and City Building inspectors, etc. we're now finally able to address some of the other issues that arose as a result. Which brings me to my questions.

Does your company have designated employees trained in CPR/First Aid to act in first response?
What are the risks involved?

My safety committee is trying to determine whether it is in our best interest to have employees onsite with this enormous responsibility. We have a fire dept. less than 1 mile from our plant.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

zen · January 2006

It would be important to know how many employees you have at your site. Studies show that immediate application and use of an automated external defibrillator is much more helpful for sudden cardiac arrest survival than CPR alone. They are very easy to use, lightweight and extremely effective. CPR training is affordable and easily obtainable - it needs to be renewed every two years at minimum or as the proceedure is changed as new research comes available. I would recommend it.

Brain cells begin to die within 4-6 minutes due to lack of oxygen following cardiac arrest. An average response time from a fire dept is 10-15 minutes or longer - If they are not out on another call when your emergency happens to arise. Then add in the time from the parking lot to the patient. What was the response time from the time of finding your employee unresponsive until the time the medics actually began application of defibrillation and oxygen?

dwitt · January 2006

We have 2 shifts, 120 employees

Yes, a defibrillator is a consideration as well. Concerns we have are the risks in using the defibrillator, even though it is supposedly easy, what if it is used unnecessarily - could it hurt the person it is supposed to save? What if there is water on the floor - can someone get shocked? What if our designated first responder panics and can't perform? We have a manufacturing environment and mentality on the floor. We want people to react quickly in a crisis situation and calling 911 is first to using a defibrillator or administering CPR. Plus, we have a large plant. How many employees would we have to train to use the defibrillator on 1st and 2nd shift?.

I'm just interested in finding out what other companies with a similar workforce are doing - Through your own experience, what are the benefits or problems with a First Response System.

HRCalico · January 2006

>could it hurt the person it is supposed to save?

The answer to that is absolutely. I read a news story very recently about an EMT that had been on the job for four days and tried to play a joke on a woman with an AED (used improperly). Her heart stopped immediately and she died a few days later. (He had been warned not to "play" with it, too.) My understanding is that the instructions are very explicit and written on a third grade level, so that if you don't remember the training, you can still follow the instructions.

To answer Paul's question below, I think they cost several hundred dollars. In my work with our health department, I have heard of a number of funders out there providing grants to purchase AEDs, so that helps.

Caroliso · January 2006

We don't have anything in place so I'm very interested in this thread.

I wonder if during an emergency the 911 operator is qualified to coach in use of defibrillator or other action steps, or if they can patch you through to an EMT? It is so true that every minute counts.

zen · January 2006

Depending on the requirements in your community, many dispatchers are specifically trained to provide instructions for CPR, AED use, and other emergency assistance. They must undergo a specialized course and are tested prior to becoming certified.

The cost of purchase of an AED varies but averages about $2,000 for a really good, sturdy model. Many grants are available for AEDs in public bldgs.

Concerns about the AED causing harm are addressed by ensuring that it is never applied to a person who has a pulse or who is breathing. They must be unresponseive, pulseless and without respiration. The AED will only shock two heart rhythms - Venticular-tachycardia (may or may not generate a pulse) and Venticular-fibrillation (does not generate a pulse). Pictures, voice prompts and hands-on training make use of the device extremely simple.

An EMT who applies an AED or manual defibrillator to a healthy person "just to see how it works" is guilty of profound negligence and should be nailed to the wall.

Brad Forrister · January 2006

I'd see two kinds of risk - the risk of doing harm, and the risk of legal liability. As to the former, the risk would probably come from having someone do it who's not trained. If you're contemplating training, that problem is certainly lessened. As to the latter, most states have Good Samaritan laws that would cover the situation.

Last summer I was at an industry conference where one of the attendees had a heart attack in the middle of the opening plenary session. He didn't make it either. We had a meeting with the hotel people afterwards, and they said they had considered having a defibrillating device but it had been vetoed by their legal department. So some people obviously are approaching that legal question with caution.

I'd be for training someone in CPR at the very least.

Brad Forrister
VP/Content
M. Lee Smith Publishers

FMDi · January 2006

At a former employer, all locations had an AED. All supervisors, managers were trained in its use by the vendor. We were also given CPR training at that time. All then were trained in first aid by certified instructors from our fire dept. Thank God, we never had to use it, but we felt lucky to have it on hand.

POPEYE · January 2006

All of our supervisors and managers are trained in CPR / First Aid as well as proper use of an AED.

It was reported that at one of the larger airports in the country, I can't remember where, the first week that AEDs were put in each concourse, they were used 15 times by untrained customers and 14 of the 15 victims survived. I would not want to work anywhere that did not have one on site.

jitrbug · January 2006

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 01-27-06 AT 05:41PM (CST)[/font][br][br]Most of our HR people and maintenance/facilities people are trained (those that are comfortable with it) in basic first aid, oxygen, CPR and AED. We formally retrain through our first aid supplier every 2 years and have our own internal training/practice 2 times a year. The oxygen regulates itself so you can't do harm. The AED is very easy to use. Ours has vocal instruction and pictures as soon as you open the case so anyone untrained would be able to do it very quickly. It even instructs you to make sure all responders are clear before you hit the button. We too have a fire department close but those first few minutes can make the difference. We have had to do CPR 2x and AED once in the past 3 years. We feel a lot better knowing we can handle it. Good samaritan laws take care of the concern we had so you might want to check those for your state.

Also, the formal training teaches you want to do regarding water, electricity and other obstructions in providing first aid.

Paul in Cannon Beach · January 2006

What are the costs involved with purchasing an AED?

WT · January 2006

We train our employees in CPR and renew each year. It is a good skill both on the shop floor and at home with friends and family. As to the legal liability, you really cannot entirely escape it in this day and age. For example, a real case involves a trained person working on a woman after her heart stopped. He got her going again and saved her life with CPR. However, in the process, he had to open her blouse and bra. Good CPR courses will tell you the compressions have to be skin (your hands) on skin (the victem's chest). It really cannot be done through clothing due to dangers involved in doing the compressions in the wrong place. (For instance the small bone in the arch at the middle of the ribcage can do damage if CPR compressions are done too low) Anyway, after she recovered, the woman sued her good Samaritan due to the fact that her breasts were exposed during the process and won a settlement. Thus, you can never really predict what people may sue over and possibly win.

jitrbug · January 2006

Paul I can't remeber what ours cost but check with first aid suppliers or Red Cross in your area and they can get you some prices. Once you pay the initial cost the only cost you have after that is the battery and pads. We just replaced one after 4 years ($75) and the pads which are also good for about 4/5 years. Really not a great cost when you consider it could save a life. Some companies even offer the oxygen and AED together in one kit.

njjel · January 2006

Where I worked previously, we trained people in CPR who volunteered to be a First Responder.

Paul in Cannon Beach · January 2006

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 01-30-06 AT 01:39PM (CST)[/font][br][br]Thanks Jtrbug

I found this page on the American Heart Association's website that has a good overview for anyone interested in AED's: [url]http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3011859[/url]

swbpr · January 2006

My aunt (67yrs) had a heart attack at work on December 7, 2005. No one is sure how long she was without oxygen prior to the 911 call and a co-worker performing CPR. Either the co-worker or EMT's were able to get a pulse but she has been in a severe coma ever since.

As stated in the other posts, those first few minutes are so critical.

In my opinion - when it's your time to go, it's your time to go. I would rather be dead than in a permanent vegetative state.

ritamcguire · January 2006

I have a terrible confession to make regarding AEDs.

We are also a basic manufacturing facility with a largely uneducated workforce. Last year we were researching the possibility of getting an AED at ~$1500 when a company in our industrial park had their AED stolen from their production facility, during late night operations. I could not think of a way to positively secure the AED while still making it readily available to each of the several different departments/shifts that run all night (24/7 ops). We were considering putting it in my office during the day, but that wouldn't really help those on the night shifts. The bottom line is that we still don't have an AED.

We're considering putting a locker in a central location and giving each of the supervisors a key. But due to the way we're spread out over several acres, there would still be a critical time delay if one were needed ASAP.

Any suggestions from other Forumites as to how they secure their AEDs in a manufacturing environment, while still allowing them to be readily available to all? We do have a theft problem, primarily at night, even though we have security guards and monitoring systems.

I also question the legal liability of putting AEDs in the hands of our supervisors, some of whom don't have a high school diploma. They're great supervisors and run a good shift, but they're not very medically astute. I'm not sure I would want them hovering over me with a set of electrodes, no matter how much training they had.

As another response indicated, we hope we've trained our workers to at least call 911 immediately if something happens. I definitely want them to do this before they expend the time looking for an AED and reading the directions on how to use it.

Kathy in Alabama · January 2006

Last year we trained volunteers after hours (and off the clock, but we paid for the CPR training fee). We had six volunteers to be trained ( out of 27 full time empl). We were also concerned about liability, but the trainer (from a local hospital) said that Good Samaritan laws would protect us if sued; said successful lawsuits were rare. In your situation, I would not let fear of lawsuit prevent me from potentially saving a life. I think it would be a great way to honor the co-worker.

Employee died - offer CPR?

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