Fairness & PTO

We have a very generous PTO policy and some employees put in at the first of the year for the "plum" times (same employees every year). Some also want to take two weeks back to back, which leaves the department short staffed. Since some of these are clinical areas which have to be staffed appropriately for patient care, we need to impose some limits.

We are going to ask staff to put in their vacation requests no more than 60 days in advance of when they want to take it. If no one has asked for the time requested, then it is granted; however, if we already have someone out that week, it will be denied. Also, we are asking that employees spread out their vacation time during the year instead of trying to take it all in the summer or around the holidays. This is starting to cause major staffing issues, especially in the summer. Employees will have to rotate time off for the holidays. Ex.: If they are off Christmas week this year, they can't have it again next year.

Another item we would like to impose is if we have overstaffing, we would like to have "volunteers" take certain days off according to how many they accrue per year. If they do not volunteer, a rotating schedule will be made for people to take this time off. They would be required to take a PTO day for this.

Have any of you had similar issues with staffing around the holidays and summer months and how did you handle this?

Thanks!!!

Comments

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  • We had pretty much the same issues as you have.

    Currently we do not allow requests for greater than 60 days out. Also require employees to request PTO 30 days in advance if they would like a sub to be arranged. Any request with less than 30 days is denied unless the person can find an approved sub. We say approved because we have some employees who will gladly work 20 hours a day and being able to approve who the sub is reduces this chance.

    If more than one person wants time off for a specific day and it causes staffing issues it's the first to request gets the worm situation.

    At first there were grumbles but that was 3 years ago - now its just the rules.
  • Ahhh, you need a union! :) With a union, these issues would all be subject to negotiation, and the senior person gets all the plum times off. Seriously, there is something to be said for rules allowing the senior person to have at least first pick for the most desirable week(s), maximum number of employees to be allowed off at one time, time off picks to be done by a certain date to qualify for first consideration, some type of rotating choice, business necessity, etc. All those rules could be written into a policy as well.
  • "Seriously, there is something to be said for rules allowing the senior person to have at least first pick for the most desirable week."

    There's something to be said for it, alright. It stinks. Awarding such plum days based on seniority is great, the first time around. After that, it should be rotational. Except in union situations, it is my experience and feeling that the senior employee should not get the day after Thanksgiving every year from now until eternity. Nor should he/she get Christmas week off every year of his/her entire lifetime. Rotation introduces fairness and fosters improved morale.
  • We do not have PTO; just the ole vacation time. We require all vacation time to be pre-approved by the Supervisor; therefore if their department is under staffed, they brought it upon themselves. Determination of vacation time is made by the earliest written request. Should two or more employees request the same time, such as a holiday period, seniority will prevail in determining who gets the requested time.
    We too had a problem in a couple of departments with the same senior employees always getting the most desired time off. Such as the Friday and Saturday after Thanksgiving. So, we amended our vacation policy some years back to.... seniority will prevail; however, we will rotate down the seniority chart so that the same senior employee does not always receive the sought after vacation time.
    We explained this change to our most senior employees and they were very understanding. We have not had a problem; yet....
    Good luck
  • So, we amended our vacation policy some years back to.... seniority will prevail; however, we will rotate down the seniority chart so that the same senior employee does not always receive the sought after vacation time.

    I like that. It says, "Seniority will prevail, except it really won't." x:-)
  • We have had to deny PTO requests on occassion, or ask staff to modify their request (leave later, return earlier, don't take as many days off, etc) to accommodate the very real needs of business. PTO use is a priveledge and sometimes staff forget that.

    Asking that PTO requests not be turned in more than 60 days in advance may help, but those who really want those specific days off around holidays or summer etc will be counting the days until they can turn their requests in and it may not change anything for you. Also, a policy like that may inadvertently hinder you and/or the employee ... a lot of people make travel plans (airfare, hotels, etc) months in advance. Would it be fair to the employee to have to make their travel plans in advance of having their vacation approved in order to take advantage of a significant savings on their airfare or room reservation? What if serious business issues prevented you from approving the time off? You'd have a very unhappy employee, who would probably make sure everyone knew that you "screwed" him out of an expensive, pre-planned vacation. Yet, if that person waits for the 60-day mark, they may have to pay through the nose to get their reservations (if they can be made at all due to seat/room availability, etc.)

    We do rotate through who is scheduled for holidays. Sometime there are people who are happy to work a holiday for the extra pay and will offer to work. We will still schedule the original staff based upon the rotation schedule, and it is up to them to secure a replacement if they want the day off.
  • Supervisors approve vacation & since they are not allowed to short themselves (and its on their evaluation) they usually only allow 2 off at the same time. We're never overstaffed. We haven't had problems with the same people asking off for the plum times, they know that if they don't play nice, their co-workers won't play nice with them when there is something they want, so we generally have a harmonious playground.

    Vacation is approved by seniority for the first 90 days of the year, after that its first come, first served.

    Good Luck.
  • I guess-overall-we're just fortunate...we have a number of ee's with many years of service and more vacation time built up...they generally take the most time at the "best" times of the year. At the same time, we have a very diverse workforce...and it balances quite nicely...those of the Jewish faith really do not mind being at work on Christmas Eve...and those of other faiths don't have a problem working Yom Kippur....so, for us, thankfully, this is not usually an issue.

    We try to accomodate staff requests for time off as much as possible. It's part of balancing work and home. But the other reality for us is that we aren't "critical"....we aren't a hospital or something in that vein.

    My mom was a nurse..and she worked all the holidays...it was just part of the job. If I remember correctly, after she reached so many years of service they rotated between Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter...if you worked two, you were guaranteed one off....but we were fortunate, all of our family lived in the same area...so traveling for the holidays wasn't an issue....that would have made it much harder...

    I guess the bottom line is to try to be fair...but it seems like you're in a 24/7 profession where people count on you. It is part of the job...and the rest of us are grateful for what you do....
  • >Another item we would like to impose is if we
    >have overstaffing, we would like to have
    >"volunteers" take certain days off according to
    >how many they accrue per year. If they do not
    >volunteer, a rotating schedule will be made for
    >people to take this time off. They would be
    >required to take a PTO day for this.


    Isn't this technically a lay-off?
  • My thought, exactly. I don't believe you can force an employee to take a vacation day or PTO day just because no work is available, i.e., a layoff situation. This is my gut feeling. Does anyone have a legal solution to this issue?
  • Sure you can. The last place I worked had a union. We had two weeks of announced vacation shutdown each year, one July, one December. Employees were off work, considered on vacation and paid vacation time. The contract required that they save two weeks of vacation for that specific purpose. During that time, since it was clearly spelled out as vacation shutdown, they were not eligible for UI.

    But, realistically, if you're doing it one day at a time and spreading it around, I suppose I would just tell Sally that 'Next Friday is your day. Don't report to work. You may receive vacation pay if you choose to. Otherwise, it is a day without pay.' Call it a 'layoff' if you like; but, she won't draw UI for being off one day.
  • I think any business that is union driven has this concept. My husband occasionally has to use his annual/vacation hours when there is not enough work.
  • Giving time off when work is short is a common practice. Somewhere there is a line between that and a lay off, but I'm not sure where it is - maybe if the employee is going to be off long enough to take their stuff home? Anyway, scheduling employee's is a management right, including giving time off. Sometimes employers mandate the taking of vacation or other paid time, sometimes that is an option. Unemployment would kick in if the absence exceeded the waiting period.
  • Just for curiosity, I ran this by my boss in Connecticut who has been in HR for 40 years. (He's even wiser than Gillian3 x:-))The procedure he recommends, and says worked well for him over the years is this: In late December early January, allow employees to schedule their first preference for one week for the new year. When those forms are in, award that week in terms of seniority. Give it no more than 2 or 3 days to sort out. Then do the same process for the next choice for a week off and award that by seniority and so forth. Each time a week is awarded, that employee's name comes out of the hat. This way he doesn't get all the plum weeks every year. He will obviously get his first choice, but after that he does not.

    That could be a rather anal process I suppose, but he swears it works.

    He is a strong 'remove the issues' proponent, i.e., avoiding organizing and teaches classes on that all over the corporation. He reminded me that of the old adage, "The best way to avoid a union is to act like you have one", in other words, observe seniority systems since not having one can become a priority organizing issue.
  • Two comments:
    1) You can diss my comments about seniority if you want, but it's important to employees, union or not. Our contracts are like the system you noted above, the senior employee gets to pick his/her first week first, but then goes down the list for everyone else' first choice, then back to the senior employee again. Works for us. Also works for the 1/3 of our employees who are not unionized.

    2) Back to the scheduling of vacation - it goes back to the basic that since you don't have to provide vacation at all, you get to set the rules about how it is used.

    I'm surprised that Linda hasn't commented. In Wisconsin, Thanksgiving week is the most coveted week of all - it coincides with most of our employees' religion - deer hunting.
  • I haven't 'dissed' anything. I firmly believe in the seniority principle. I also believe that seniority cannot drive every event in perpetuity. Give and take, compromise and sharing are always desirable things to have among the workforce, except, of course, with union contracts. Union contracts do not recognize the principle of give and take, except, perhaps, during negotiations every four years. The rest of society typically does recognize the principle.
  • An equally old adage is - " A company that deserves a union gets the union it deserves."

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    Disclaimer: This message is not intended to offend or attack. It is posted as personal opinion and with the gentlest of intentions.
  • With my current company the supervisor has the authority to approve/deny vacation and each dept. has a certain number of people who can be off at the same time. Vacation is granted on a first come/first serve basis.

    At a former employer (union) there was a much more rigid system...

    From December 1-15th of each year, employees were allowed to request vacation by week blocks only for the following year. This was granted according to seniority. From the 16th to the 30th, they were able to request vacation in single days. Again these were granted in seniority order. After the 31st of December, all vacations were done first come/first serve. Since each dept. was only allowed 10% off at a time, the number of EEs in that department that could be off at one time was provided. This system worked really well as the EEs had a limited number of single vacation days they could take (5) and the rest had to be done in week blocks. There was alot of switching whereing one EE would cancel vacation to allow another the chance to take it but that was between them.
  • About a decade ago I was in advertising for a city newspaper. As the paper publishes every day, 24/7 weekends and holidays included, vacations were always a sensitive issue. They did grant vacations with seniority priority, however, one thing they changed to help even things out worked very well. You were only allowed to take one "side" of a holiday, (before or after), and if you didn't show up on the day before/after when you were due (without a documentable excuse), you forfeit the holiday pay. It sounded harsh at first, but was quickly accepted and worked quite well. Employees also negotiated to accommodate the various family traditions or circumstances when possible.
  • Seniority is the benefit for not switching jobs every few years. While our society has changed I think employees view seniority differently. Where I am currently employed seniority is highly coveted. When I worked in a military town this subject came up (1/2 of the office was military dependents and the other 1/2 were not -- so you know where the seniority was and who had to travel during holidays). This discussion came up but with surprising results. The military dependents were very willing to accept the seniority bit knowing it would rule them out of some precious vacation time, but the senior employees were very williing to give up their seniority to allow those with families out of town the privilege of traveling. Sometimes the employees can really work it out themselves.
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