What if the information pertained to the Wiccan faith? What if it was from a fundamental muslim organization? We could play the what-if game all day long.
The bottom line is that if you allow this door to remain open to your truth...you must permit other's truths also...equally, without discrimination.
In one of his posts jeffrey did say that the company allowed every kind of pamphlet etc.. If so, I can't see how they are getting any business done with everyone running around preaching their own beliefs. Jeffrey, "the truth will prevail", if anyone said that to me at work I would be shocked. Now if they came to my front door on a saturday I would have the option of politely telling them that I am enjoying my BBQ and beer right now and I don't want to be bothered, then show them the front of my door. This stuff does NOT belong in a professional environment.
Hence my comment: "The key is how one applies those convictions to the workplace."
I just get very nervous when we talk about people being disqualified from a job because of convinctions, religious or otherwise. Where do we draw the line?
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 06-09-04 AT 09:03AM (CST)[/font][br][br]"Recently an ee has expressed that someone stop placing gospel tracts in the restroom- I'm looking for some replies/suggestions"
Jeffrey, several people, including myself now, suggest that these not be allowed along with other materials, for reasons already stated. But it seems like this isn't what you want to hear.
You don't run a philosophy class, you have a business. There is a time and place for all this and a business is neither. As was stated earlier, by allowing everything you leave the business open to future problems and Union propaganda. The best thing to do is not to allow anything of the sort.
Ray's quandry: "I just get very nervous when we talk about people being disqualified from a job because of convinctions, religious or otherwise. Where do we draw the line?"
Ray, you haven't been listening. Nobody has implied that someone should be disqualified from a job because of convictions and several of us have indicated where the line is drawn. One disqualifies him/herself when those convictions are shared freely in the employment context in the types of efforts I will mention below. And the line is drawn at proseletizing, attempts to convert, sermonizing, preaching, laying hands on in prayer, offering up prayers in an HR setting, telling employees you will pray with or for them to a certain power, admonishing others that they will or might go to Hell or another place, telling employees in a spiritual context that "The Truth Will Prevail" or that "The path is narrow", inviting employees to accept Christ or your faith. I suspect rather strongly that Jeffrey spends a better part of his day doing those very things. If my suspicion is correct, I would say that he has disqualified himself from serving in an HR capacity. He is not employed as a chaplain or an adventist, or if he is, he has not told us so.
It's just this simple: Nobody at work should really know what my religion is or if I have one. Nor should anyone at work know my position on abortion, if I have one.
Unfortunately, we live in a society where religious symbols are being removed under threats of expensive lawsuits, right or wrong. Not too many businesses have the deep pockets necessary to defend forever against these lawsuits, and still remain in business. Like it or not, religious symbols in many workplaces put the bottom-line at risk.
Jeffrey, You have been given some very, very excellent advise and guidance. I am a God-fearing, born again Christian. I know that I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and I do like to share my feelings and to encourage and disciple others into whatever "faith" they are so inclined to believe in. HOWEVER, never have I allowed my personal beliefs and or convictions come to play in the workplace. As you have been so eloquently told, you will quickly loose your credibility by forcing what you believe to be the "truth" on someone else.
The best way you can be a witness to your faith is to live it, be fair, be consistent, have integrity, be open-minded and above all know when to and when not to force your beliefs on others.
Jeffrey, You came to the group seeking advice- at least be open minded enough to listen and dont discount what has been given. You will (and I suspect already have) loose credibility as an HR person to be fair and impartial if this is your overt behavior. Non work related material should be designated for non- work time(ie breaks and lunch) in non-work areas (ie Break/Lunch room) to do any thing less would create a distraction in the workplace. The focus should be on work and not "truth" whatever the hell that means.
P.S., If you really are in HR or Management, you have an obligation to remove ALL forms of potential sexual harassment. That means the pictures and calendars have to go. Dont pay lip service that it has gotten better, eliminate the potential.
Since you are asking for suggestions I suggest that you create a policy. You said the company has no policy stated about religious propaganda, what about other propaganda, union stuff, other material. Is there a policy on that? Again I strongly suggest that you create a policy, review it with all ee's and then have them sign off on a form stating they have received and understand the policy, and place that in their file.
I am going to play the devil's advocate here. What if it was a religious belief for one to unzip their pants in the lunchroom or anywhere other than the restroom in private? Sorry Forum friends, I couldn’t resist. Would you allow that behavior based on religious belief policy or lack of? The line needs to be drawn, set in stone and enforced.
You have had someone express that they want the placement of this type of material to stop. If I were in your shoes, no matter what my belief set was, I would take immediate action to stop this behavior.
OK Jeffrey, let us know from you what sort of company you work for and what your position is. I'm the resident Doubting Thomas (Old Testament?) and have begun that process. I think you have not told the truth about who was placing the religious tracts. If you have consciously formed a policy that allows so many diverse types of literature to be distributed in the workplace and you've hired such a diverse group of employees, you would not post a question to ask if the religious tracts were alright to have in the John (New Testament). I don't think you're honest when you say that you employ people of all those faiths and that you have all those forms of propaganda being brought into your establishment and all that stuff is just sitting around in neat stacks for the taking. But, I've been wrong before (maybe once) and I could be reading you incorrectly.
I'm with you Don, even an HR newbee wouldn't have taken this position with Pornography, calendars, posters, and religious material- none of which belong in a workplace.
I think we just fell victims to a deliberate engagement crafted only to self-serve the original poster's needs and to somehow further fuel his propaganda campaign.
I work at a manufacturing plant in Louisville,Ky. about 30 ees. My position is the Quality Manager. I've been employed here for 13yrs. I started as a general laborer at the age of 19. I have worked my way up into management.
We have no HR dept. other than the direct supervisors and the owner. I have taken it upon myself to seek advice for certain issues that may come up from time to time about HR. Don, I do not appreciate being called a liar. I did not place the tracts in the restroom. You should not be so quick to judge. You are pretty good at putting words in someone elses mouth. I said we would allow other material from other faiths and that there was only one other incicdent from the ee that is in a cult. No one really was interested in his literature. I feel that I am very fortunate to work for a company with about 90% conservatives.
I realize that I have struck a nerve with my original post. I apologize for that to everyone. Don, you are wrong about me. I have to get back to work. Thanks everyone for the helpful advice. Take care and God Bless. Please excuse any grammar or spelling errors.
Jeffrey, I believe you are missing a major point. You should not be apologizing for striking a nerve on your original post. The reason you should not apologize is that the posters on this web site seem to thrive on controversy. However, your post did point out how desparately your company does need a HR professional. And, I hope you learned something about what is and isn't considered acceptable in the business environment.
Then the Rastafarian comes into the break room, smoking a blunt, handing out psychadelic posters and playing Santana on the boombox. "Hey mon, you cannot see the Truth unless you are high, looking at this Yantra poster and listening to Santana. All others are doomed to revolve on the wheel of life!"
Now this gentleman certainly has a point of view regarding truth, and is disseminating it based on his understanding of your corporate policy.
Next he may be sacrificing a chicken in the lunch room, but that may not be a Rastafarian practice. Are you going to let him preach his brand of truth?
I have a 3 year old son and I was in our backyard with him the other night and he shouted "I have to go potty." Being the attentive dad, I didnt look up from what I was doing but replied, "well go". After 30 seconds went by, I realized that I hadnt heard the screen door open or close so I turned around to see him pants down around his ankles peeing in the yard. Never have I laughed so hard. Since then I have learned to be more specific in my directions.
I am so relieved that jeffrey is not in HR!!! I was having a hard time wrapping my mind around an HR person encouraging this type of activity. I hope that he has gained something from this thread but I doubt it. His company, though 90% conservative (I read Christian in that, people can be non-religious conservatives) will most likely suffer from some sort of lawsuit at some point. Good luck jeffrey.
I agree FHR. But, what's frightening is the way his initial post is worded. He either has the authority to make decisions on these things or thinks he does. He bristled at me when I said I did not believe him, even though I said 'I could be wrong'. That didn't sound particularly Christian or conservative. But, I'm a forgiving soul.
We don't have a specific policy against it, nor will I implement one (it would go against "diversity" initiatives that "embrace" differences). I tell employees who complain if they don't like it don't read/look at it; no one is forcing them. If it bothers them that much, move it out of the stall or toss it in the garbage themselves.
For your sake and the sake of the owner I would hope the company has deep pockets because taking that stance will get you slapped with a lawsuit and your defense will be, as you said, "political correctness is for the birds." Good luck in the legal system with that defense strategy. Most of the advise given to you in response to your oroginal post was to not allow it. Your company, while small, is not immune to the court system and that is where you will be in the near future. You have an employee that complained about a type of reading material and you have done nothing to stop it! One day your owner will reealize the value of HR and invest in a good HR person, probably after the lawsuit you are heading for.
Comments
The bottom line is that if you allow this door to remain open to your truth...you must permit other's truths also...equally, without discrimination.
Jeffrey, "the truth will prevail", if anyone said that to me at work I would be shocked. Now if they came to my front door on a saturday I would have the option of politely telling them that I am enjoying my BBQ and beer right now and I don't want to be bothered, then show them the front of my door.
This stuff does NOT belong in a professional environment.
I just get very nervous when we talk about people being disqualified from a job because of convinctions, religious or otherwise. Where do we draw the line?
I'm looking for some replies/suggestions"
Jeffrey, several people, including myself now, suggest that these not be allowed along with other materials, for reasons already stated. But it seems like this isn't what you want to hear.
You don't run a philosophy class, you have a business. There is a time and place for all this and a business is neither. As was stated earlier, by allowing everything you leave the business open to future problems and Union propaganda. The best thing to do is not to allow anything of the sort.
Ray, you haven't been listening. Nobody has implied that someone should be disqualified from a job because of convictions and several of us have indicated where the line is drawn. One disqualifies him/herself when those convictions are shared freely in the employment context in the types of efforts I will mention below. And the line is drawn at proseletizing, attempts to convert, sermonizing, preaching, laying hands on in prayer, offering up prayers in an HR setting, telling employees you will pray with or for them to a certain power, admonishing others that they will or might go to Hell or another place, telling employees in a spiritual context that "The Truth Will Prevail" or that "The path is narrow", inviting employees to accept Christ or your faith. I suspect rather strongly that Jeffrey spends a better part of his day doing those very things. If my suspicion is correct, I would say that he has disqualified himself from serving in an HR capacity. He is not employed as a chaplain or an adventist, or if he is, he has not told us so.
It's just this simple: Nobody at work should really know what my religion is or if I have one. Nor should anyone at work know my position on abortion, if I have one.
Chari
You have been given some very, very excellent advise and guidance. I am a God-fearing, born again Christian. I know that I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and I do like to share my feelings and to encourage and disciple others into whatever "faith" they are so inclined to believe in. HOWEVER, never have I allowed my personal beliefs and or convictions come to play in the workplace. As you have been so eloquently told, you will quickly loose your credibility by forcing what you believe to be the "truth" on someone else.
The best way you can be a witness to your faith is to live it, be fair, be consistent, have integrity, be open-minded and above all know when to and when not to force your beliefs on others.
Jeffrey, You came to the group seeking advice- at least be open minded enough to listen and dont discount what has been given. You will (and I suspect already have) loose credibility as an HR person to be fair and impartial if this is your overt behavior. Non work related material should be designated for non- work time(ie breaks and lunch) in non-work areas (ie Break/Lunch room) to do any thing less would create a distraction in the workplace. The focus should be on work and not "truth" whatever the hell that means.
P.S., If you really are in HR or Management, you have an obligation to remove ALL forms of potential sexual harassment. That means the pictures and calendars have to go. Dont pay lip service that it has gotten better, eliminate the potential.
I am going to play the devil's advocate here. What if it was a religious belief for one to unzip their pants in the lunchroom or anywhere other than the restroom in private? Sorry Forum friends, I couldn’t resist. Would you allow that behavior based on religious belief policy or lack of? The line needs to be drawn, set in stone and enforced.
You have had someone express that they want the placement of this type of material to stop. If I were in your shoes, no matter what my belief set was, I would take immediate action to stop this behavior.
In the infamous words of Pork: GONG!
Gene
My $0.02 worth!
DJ The Balloonman
I work at a manufacturing plant in Louisville,Ky. about 30 ees. My position is the Quality Manager. I've been employed here for 13yrs. I started as a general laborer at the age of 19. I have worked my way up into management.
We have no HR dept. other than the direct supervisors and the owner. I have taken it upon myself to seek advice for certain issues that may come up from time to time about HR. Don, I do not appreciate being called a liar. I did not place the tracts in the restroom. You should not be so quick to judge.
You are pretty good at putting words in someone elses mouth. I said we would allow other material from other faiths and that there was only one other incicdent from the ee that is in a cult. No one really was interested in his literature. I feel that I am very fortunate to work for a company with about 90% conservatives.
I realize that I have struck a nerve with my original post. I apologize for that to everyone.
Don, you are wrong about me. I have to get back to work. Thanks everyone for the helpful advice.
Take care and God Bless. Please excuse any grammar or spelling errors.
Now this gentleman certainly has a point of view regarding truth, and is disseminating it based on his understanding of your corporate policy.
Next he may be sacrificing a chicken in the lunch room, but that may not be a Rastafarian practice. Are you going to let him preach his brand of truth?
Jeffrey, did you take your toys and go home?
>since I saw a friend taking a whiz out in the
>back yard.
Don was that friend a male, if so remember the world is our urnal as you reminded us in a previous post. That friend must have been a female.
I hope that he has gained something from this thread but I doubt it. His company, though 90% conservative (I read Christian in that, people can be non-religious conservatives) will most likely suffer from some sort of lawsuit at some point.
Good luck jeffrey.
That is the stance we are taking. The owner has already decided. Thanks for your understanding. Political correctness is for the birds.
Jeff