Well besides the fact that they won't let me in the hotel with my locked hair, I surely would not stay there or eat there. They could not possibly have time to give me proper service -- what with policing every root color, hair style and ear ring. Gee, our staff looks terrific and we have a much simpler dress policy. It is geared towards maintaining a professional business atmosphere, and not personal prejudices.
So you see the people who wear locks and braids as "unmade beds?" How stereotypical can you be? There are enough unkempt people without them and just as many neatly groomed people with them. That comment was shameful and on the verge of being...
CMC..no where did I see a reference to specificaly people who wear locks and braids as "unmade beds". I am caucasion and trust me, just this morning I had bad bed head. Bottom line here is we are talking professional appearance..let's all take a deep breath and keep to the facts.
Welcome to the Forum CMC. I don't know you, but you've posted quite enough in your first two posts to paint a fairly thorough picture. I for one am used to having discussions on the Forum without having them wind up in racial overtones. I'm here to learn as well as to share. I have a white guy in this plant with dreadlocks and in the union environment where I came from, we had three of those (white guys with extremely long dreadlocks). He considers his appearance quite acceptable. In the plant, it makes no difference. If he were my receptionist, well......... he'd be rejected for that position. My personal opinion about this subject has nothing at all to do with race, nothing. I don't think you'll find anyone here saying they prefer curly blond-headed employees. In fact, you'll most typically find us joking on the forum about the mental attributes of that particular group, all in good fun. If you have something constructive to offer that might help us do our jobs better, rather than jumping up on the flatbed and slamming opinions, please join in. If your intention is merely to put your hands on your hips and play the race card, you accomplished your objective. If I have misjudged you, I'm sure I'll soon hear about it.
(note: The preceeding is strictly my personal opinion, to which I am entitled. It represents no other person or group and certainly not the entire body of participants on the Forum. My remarks are not made in order to offend anyone, however, if that should result, I suggest the offended get over it. I welcome healthy debate and will accept any comment made as the maker's right. And I will try to understand it. I ask the same in return.)
Okay, I am exhaling now. To 5560905,LA - you came to the forum requesting feedback on an issue of concern in your workplace. Perhaps you can tell from the postings that your situation is more complex than simply "grooming" standards. We all bring our baggage to the workplace and it is important to try to see every side. That does not mean you have to agree with it. It is expected that a business will set standards. As the HR person monitoring these things, our job is to see that they are equitable, realistic, and do not break laws.
I learn a lot from this forum and hope that others learn something from me as well. It is not necessary to always agree -- but we can always disagree in a manner that does not negate the rights of others.
I have dealt with the issues you are currently facing concerning workers with locks,braids,doo-rags,hats, etc. Please trust me that they can be addressed and handled effectively. However, it is not easy and that is because the basis for our feelings about the appearance of others involves our cultural programming. It will take much too long to address these things in the forum format.
My efforts to take a short cut and give posters a chance to see another side may not have been as effective as I had hoped. Just know that you can have a professional looking organization with high grooming standards by dealing with the specific grooming issues rather than baning locks and/or braids -- which only unfairly stigmatize others.
We have come such a long way with these workplace and life issues, and now is no time to quit. You have my wishes and support for a positive conclusion.
Thanks Don for your welcome. I guess I did not paint as clear a picture as we either of us thought. Since your rapid conclusions tend to suggest that you have already pegged who and what I am. I get the impression that you think that I wrote from a personal position. Actually, it was from the position of a person who has dealt with the legal side of discrimination far too often. I have seen the so called subtleties of "what our clients prefer" blow up in more than one employer's face. And by the way, I would be the hooked nose blonde of which I wrote... without the benefit or detriment of a race card to play. Hopefully, that doesn't distort your picture too much. Tootles.
No ma'am. You're wrong. Any one of us can play the race card at any time. Playing the race card does not require that one be OF a certain race, only that they make a conscious decision to derail the conversation by exclaiming 'the whole thing is due to nothing but racial prejudice'. That was playing the race card. And, I might add, unfairly. I've read lots of honest posts on this thread and didn't read any of them as racial, except yours. I dare say the lady that posted this original question did not have race in mind at all. If she had, she would surely not have posted it. To turn this all into a racial prejudice issue is unfair to her and insulting to her. I don't speak for her, but would feel that way if I were her. I've tried to email Dasher to tell her how much I appreciate and value her posts here, but her email wasn't enabled. I have personally benefitted from her posts.
"You're wrong. Any one of us can play the race card at any time. Playing the race card does not require that one be OF a certain race, only that they make a conscious decision to derail the conversation by exclaiming 'the whole thing is due to nothing but racial prejudice'. That was playing the race card. And, I might add, unfairly. I've read lots of honest posts on this thread and didn't read any of them as racial, except yours. I dare say the lady that posted this original question did not have race in mind at all. If she had, she would surely not have posted it. To turn this all into a racial prejudice issue is unfair to her and insulting to her. I don't speak for her, but would feel that way if I were her. I've tried to email Dasher to tell her how much I appreciate and value her posts here, but her email wasn't enabled. I have personally benefitted from her posts."
Your inclination to make rampant assumptions is amazing. As I re-read the posts in an attempt to discern what exactly garnered your accusations and hostility. It was apparent that the only person to assert race was you. You make a lot of unfounded assumptions. Your assumptions cause one to conclude that you are more guilty of your own accusations than those to whom you point your accusing finger. I am not sure if you are responding out of the inexperience of youth or the aged foolishness of tunnel vision. My original post was intended not to raise anyone's ire, but rather to clarify that personal (and often professional) opinions are not the basis for legal decisions. As I have read this and other posts, it is refreshing to see that wherever you are coming from or whatever biases you perpetuate, your presumptions and hostility are the execption, and not the rule. Don, you seem to be deeply troubled, and for that I will not respond to you again, but I do wish you well.
" It was apparent that the only person to assert race was you."
"You make a lot of unfounded assumptions."
"My original post was intended not to raise anyone's ire, but rather to clarify that personal (and often professional) opinions >are not the basis for legal decisions. "
"your presumptions and hostility are the execption, and not the rule. Don, you seem to be deeply troubled"
CMC - the original poster was looking for advice on dress code violations that had been allowed to be broken. She's been put in the difficult spot to fix it. She knows ahead of time that about three employees will resist. The mention of braids or dreadlocks has nothing to do with race. When employees push the envelope with dress code it's a form of non-violent rebellion, a stance they will lose in court. The courts take the position it's the employer's turf and may dictate their own appearance standards. One doesn't need to be an attorney to know that. You brought race into this query somehwere around post 24 or 25 with your row of dots. Or was that just to lead readers on? Then the reader making an inferrance of race would be the one to have made an inaccurate assumption. I too, got the impression you were grandstanding as if the fact that you're an attorney adds validity to your opinion. You make many assumptions also. Since a reader can't hear a poster's tone of voice, you may assume that a post is hostile. Mine is not. I'm just sitting across the table talking. You needn't get up and pound your fist on the table.
CMC, you seemed to come on to this forum loaded for bear and with guns ablazing without really trying to understand the group dynamics. There are many regular posters on this forum who often agree on issues, but sometimes disagree, even strongly. But, I have never seen any examples of racism as you implied were evident by way of your leading statement ending in the "....'s". You seemed to make assumptions. Yes, we will size each other up, but you being the newcomer are at a disadvantage. But, we all went through that and survived. Dreadlocks is not an issue in my business. But the couple of times an ee came in with them, they also came in wearing white skin. It is not a race issue.
You know, this has turned into a very interesting thread. I have learned some, been irritated some, agreed some, disagreed some, and even eaten some ice cream while reading this. I'm exhausted! xI-)
You know - once I actually received a big box of pasteries from an interviewee. They looked sooooo good and were from the bakery a couple miles away (which I know to be wonderful). However, I was too scared to eat them...might have rat poison on 'em or something! x;)
I'm with you princess- I've never eaten anything I've ever received from an employee, applicant or a vendor. I always put it outside near our HR reception area and the employees typically eat it. TRUST NO ONE
CNC, you're agitating. What could possibly be the relevance of providing the gentle Forum participants with a description of your hair color and the shape of your nose? It has no relevance to the thread we've been thoughtfully discussing. I pegged you early. Your objectives were (1) to tell us you are a lawyer, and (2) to play the race card. Neither requires a particular nose size or hair tint and neither advanced the discussion or our understanding of the issues being tossed around. It only pissed people off who were trying to explore and consider what was being discussed.
I might suggest that you could certainly learn from re-reading Dasher's posts. Now that's a class way to state differences and not alienate everybody. If you could conduct yourself with her class, you might even do better in your stand-up lawyering. x:-)
Lynn: I notice your real name is Harold. If you have something to contribute to the discussion, please do so. We would all enjoy additional, meaningful contributions. We really don't need your assessment of me, but would welcome your contribution to the discussion at hand. x:-)
But, alas, the most accurate. Please see my previous disclaimer, which follows.
(note: The preceeding is strictly my personal opinion, to which I am entitled. It represents no other person or group and certainly not the entire body of participants on the Forum. My remarks are not made in order to offend anyone, however, if that should result, I suggest the offended get over it. I welcome healthy debate and will accept any comment made as the maker's right. And I will try to understand it. I ask the same in return.)
As several of us have said many times on the Forum; If you have something to add, add it. If you will contribute to the general discussion, and ultimately help us solve our daily HR problems and improve in our profession, by all means, please join the discussion. If you simply want to piss on fire hydrants and criticize and berate other posters, in this case me, go away. You say you are an attorney. If you behaved this way in a courtroom, the judge would have had the bailiff haul you off long ago. HR managers were having a serious discussion about a subject and question posted by a contemporary. This was a very thoughtful discussion before you tilted it. The whole machine started blinking all those bright flashing "TILT" lights like an old pinball machine. This is just my personal opinion, of course, but I'm willing to take the arrows for others who probably feel the same way. Sadly, you have probably caused the discussion to die. As you said, x:-) Peace. Shalom. Aleichem.
I have tried to stay away from this one but bandwagon, here I come. One can not, in my opinion, compare locks to long blond curls on a woman. One is acceptable to just about everyone in our society, the other is not. So lets not compare apples and oranges here. Would I deny a position to someone with locks? No, not if I felt the appearance was clean and presentable and it wasn't against policy. Would I deny a position to someone with short smelly greasy hair? You betcha. My take on this, and I could be wrong, is that the concern is what the customer, those patronizing the hotel, will think when they see a bell man with locks and perhaps decide the place is a little too crazy and decide to stay somewhere else on their next visit. Valid concern, we can not expect everyone to see things a certain way. I can tell you that locks would not fly at hotels in Boston. In the People's Republic of Cambridge, maybe, but not Boston proper.
You state that you have a dress code that addresses braid length. Enforce it.
OK, I seldom post here but I always read the posts and learn something, sometimes even what I'm looking for! I just couldn't pass this up.
I am a woman of Native American/Irish descent. In the winter, when I'm not "tan" it is not so noticeable, but in the summer my heritage is clear even though I dye my hair blonde (to cover the gray!)
I have experienced my own disparate treatment, which I am more than capable of handling myself. (If anyone else here has ever heard "Hey, squaw, wanna take a chance on a blanket", please let me know) My personal bias is someone who thinks they need to "stick up for me" when they have no concept of the problems I experience. Therefore, if you aren't Native American yourself, don't play the race card on my behalf. I know several African American women who feel the same way.
As for the dreadlocks, I work in the legal field. Absolutely no way would this hairstyle be acceptable and all of my employees were aware when they were hired that appropriate appearance would be required. Through the years those employees have included African Americans, hispanics, men, women, teenagers, a woman born with only one arm, and two in wheelchairs. They all managed to maintain a professional appearance without undue pressure from me.
C: What the h--- does that mean? Is it a cultural thing? You have made remarks that are off the wall yet you pretend to be maligned. Have you ever heard the expression, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"?
Here on the Forum we sometimes throw jabs at our fellow Forumites. However, some of it is done in fun and some is done in a non-combative manner. But.... there are times when one of us gets stomped on and leaves that person with 2 choices. The first would be to walk away and ignore the garbage and the other is to defend themselves. Guess which one I would choose.
Comments
(note: The preceeding is strictly my personal opinion, to which I am entitled. It represents no other person or group and certainly not the entire body of participants on the Forum. My remarks are not made in order to offend anyone, however, if that should result, I suggest the offended get over it. I welcome healthy debate and will accept any comment made as the maker's right. And I will try to understand it. I ask the same in return.)
To 5560905,LA - you came to the forum requesting feedback on an issue of concern in your workplace. Perhaps you can tell from the postings that your situation is more complex than simply "grooming" standards. We all bring our baggage to the workplace and it is important to try to see every side. That does not mean you have to agree with it. It is expected that a business will set standards. As the HR person monitoring these things, our job is to see that they are equitable, realistic, and do not break laws.
I learn a lot from this forum and hope that others learn something from me as well. It is not necessary to always agree -- but we can always disagree in a manner that does not negate the rights of others.
I have dealt with the issues you are currently facing concerning workers with locks,braids,doo-rags,hats, etc. Please trust me that they can be addressed and handled effectively. However, it is not easy and that is because the basis for our feelings about the appearance of others involves our cultural programming. It will take much too long to address these things in the forum format.
My efforts to take a short cut and give posters a chance to see another side may not have been as effective as I had hoped. Just know that you can have a professional looking organization with high grooming standards by dealing with the specific grooming issues rather than baning locks and/or braids -- which only unfairly stigmatize others.
We have come such a long way with these workplace and life issues, and now is no time to quit. You have my wishes and support for a positive conclusion.
Your inclination to make rampant assumptions is amazing. As I re-read the posts in an attempt to discern what exactly garnered your accusations and hostility. It was apparent that the only person to assert race was you. You make a lot of unfounded assumptions. Your assumptions cause one to conclude that you are more guilty of your own accusations than those to whom you point your accusing finger. I am not sure if you are responding out of the inexperience of youth or the aged foolishness of tunnel vision. My original post was intended not to raise anyone's ire, but rather to clarify that personal (and often professional) opinions are not the basis for legal decisions. As I have read this and other posts, it is refreshing to see that wherever you are coming from or whatever biases you perpetuate, your presumptions and hostility are the execption, and not the rule. Don, you seem to be deeply troubled, and for that I will not respond to you again, but I do wish you well.
"You make a lot of unfounded assumptions."
"My original post was intended not to raise anyone's ire, but rather to clarify that personal (and often professional) opinions
>are not the basis for legal decisions. "
"your presumptions and hostility are the execption, and not the rule. Don, you seem to be deeply troubled"
CMC - the original poster was looking for advice on dress code violations that had been allowed to be broken. She's been put in the difficult spot to fix it. She knows ahead of time that about three employees will resist. The mention of braids or dreadlocks has nothing to do with race. When employees push the envelope with dress code it's a form of non-violent rebellion, a stance they will lose in court. The courts take the position it's the employer's turf and may dictate their own appearance standards. One doesn't need to be an attorney to know that. You brought race into this query somehwere around post 24 or 25 with your row of dots. Or was that just to lead readers on? Then the reader making an inferrance of race would be the one to have made an inaccurate assumption. I too, got the impression you were grandstanding as if the fact that you're an attorney adds validity to your opinion. You make many assumptions also. Since a reader can't hear a poster's tone of voice, you may assume that a post is hostile. Mine is not. I'm just sitting across the table talking. You needn't get up and pound your fist on the table.
CMC, you seemed to come on to this forum loaded for bear and with guns ablazing without really trying to understand the group dynamics. There are many regular posters on this forum who often agree on issues, but sometimes disagree, even strongly. But, I have never seen any examples of racism as you implied were evident by way of your leading statement ending in the "....'s". You seemed to make assumptions. Yes, we will size each other up, but you being the newcomer are at a disadvantage. But, we all went through that and survived. Dreadlocks is not an issue in my business. But the couple of times an ee came in with them, they also came in wearing white skin. It is not a race issue.
I might suggest that you could certainly learn from re-reading Dasher's posts. Now that's a class way to state differences and not alienate everybody. If you could conduct yourself with her class, you might even do better in your stand-up lawyering. x:-)
I kind of thought Dasher and CMC both had valid points.
And for the comment of "gentle formum participants" I think that must have been tongue in cheek, Don, I have read too many of yu'alls replies.
(note: The preceeding is strictly my personal opinion, to which I am entitled. It represents no other person or group and certainly not the entire body of participants on the Forum. My remarks are not made in order to offend anyone, however, if that should result, I suggest the offended get over it. I welcome healthy debate and will accept any comment made as the maker's right. And I will try to understand it. I ask the same in return.)
You state that you have a dress code that addresses braid length. Enforce it.
I am a woman of Native American/Irish descent. In the winter, when I'm not "tan" it is not so noticeable, but in the summer my heritage is clear even though I dye my hair blonde (to cover the gray!)
I have experienced my own disparate treatment, which I am more than capable of handling myself. (If anyone else here has ever heard "Hey, squaw, wanna take a chance on a blanket", please let me know) My personal bias is someone who thinks they need to "stick up for me" when they have no concept of the problems I experience. Therefore, if you aren't Native American yourself, don't play the race card on my behalf. I know several African American women who feel the same way.
As for the dreadlocks, I work in the legal field. Absolutely no way would this hairstyle be acceptable and all of my employees were aware when they were hired that appropriate appearance would be required. Through the years those employees have included African Americans, hispanics, men, women, teenagers, a woman born with only one arm, and two in wheelchairs. They all managed to maintain a professional appearance without undue pressure from me.
If you have a rule, enforce it.
Annie
C: What the h--- does that mean? Is it a cultural thing? You have made remarks that are off the wall yet you pretend to be maligned. Have you ever heard the expression, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"?
Here on the Forum we sometimes throw jabs at our fellow Forumites. However, some of it is done in fun and some is done in a non-combative manner. But.... there are times when one of us gets stomped on and leaves that person with 2 choices. The first would be to walk away and ignore the garbage and the other is to defend themselves. Guess which one I would choose.