ILLEGALS AND WAL-MART SITUATION
Pork
1,271 Posts
FOLKS: It continues to amaze me at the legal issues surrounding the 1.6 million illegals supposedly working in our communities without authorization. Yesterday in my travels I was listening to the National Public Radio and I learned that Wal-Mart and Contractor are jointly being sued for discrimination under Title VII.
As in one of my previous post on this subject, I was told that the courts had decided that "illegals have no legal status under our laws and are not protected by nor included in the protected class of National Origin".
Again, who do we trust? I am sitting here with 10 confessed illegals (now 9, one quit on his own)that we are prepared to keep, if our applications for change in status is approved. However, we were also prepared to cancel our employer/employee relationships, if we could not get this issue solved by January 1, 2004. $5000.00 a day per individual times the number of days we have been aware of our employee's illegal status amounts to way to may 000000.00s for my wallet to handle!!
Now,with the NPR news item, I'm back to "Who do we trust, the Regional Director of Workforce Development (DOL), who tells me the illegal worker has no legal status, or the real law suit against the biggest retailer in the world for the termination of illegal workers"? I sure hope they don't entertain a settlement action.
OH WHAT A MESS!!! I have sought Divine Wisdom & Guidance on this issue, but I have nothing but peace of mind to, stay the course for now! It sure would be nice to have our HRero "trusted attorney" speak up to these issues. Floating around in our HR cyber space is fun but also educational and is why I encouraged our company to remain a member of this forum.
PORK
As in one of my previous post on this subject, I was told that the courts had decided that "illegals have no legal status under our laws and are not protected by nor included in the protected class of National Origin".
Again, who do we trust? I am sitting here with 10 confessed illegals (now 9, one quit on his own)that we are prepared to keep, if our applications for change in status is approved. However, we were also prepared to cancel our employer/employee relationships, if we could not get this issue solved by January 1, 2004. $5000.00 a day per individual times the number of days we have been aware of our employee's illegal status amounts to way to may 000000.00s for my wallet to handle!!
Now,with the NPR news item, I'm back to "Who do we trust, the Regional Director of Workforce Development (DOL), who tells me the illegal worker has no legal status, or the real law suit against the biggest retailer in the world for the termination of illegal workers"? I sure hope they don't entertain a settlement action.
OH WHAT A MESS!!! I have sought Divine Wisdom & Guidance on this issue, but I have nothing but peace of mind to, stay the course for now! It sure would be nice to have our HRero "trusted attorney" speak up to these issues. Floating around in our HR cyber space is fun but also educational and is why I encouraged our company to remain a member of this forum.
PORK
Comments
PORK
I had understood that Walmart was being sued for knowing that the janitorial service they contracted with knowingly hires illegal aliens.
Elizabeth
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman
Peyton Irby
Editor, Mississippi Employment Law Letter
Watkins Ludlam Winter & Stennis, P.A.
(601) 949-4810
[email]pirby@watkinsludlam.com[/email]
You might want to know that there is immigration policy rationale for having illegals eligible for some of the protections of FLSA. And it is not to provide a benefit to illegal workers.
If firms are able to hire illegals, systematically underpay them, and then have no consequences when caught, those firms have (and used to have) an incentive to risk such hires. Similarly with OSHA protections, etc.
That incentive is removed when employers have to, e.g., pay past-due overtime and penalties, even as the former employees are deported. Employers who might otherwise walk at or over the line of good immigration practices have one less reason to do so, one more reason to make certain they hire legitimate workers.
Regards,
Steve Mac
Steve McElfresh, PhD
Principal & Founder
HR Futures
408.605.1870
Is it clear to you then, that if an employer has proceeded in good faith to support, abide, and use the Federal Laws, appropriately, that the courts have set precedence or case law that otherwise, says an illegal foreign national has no legal status to use our laws to get us into a pinch and force a settlement as opposed to trial?
For instance Wal-Mart, who is a giant that is slowly eating away at a very large base of our economy, but they are a representation of all of us in some form of business as one who is under attack from a "class action suit" supporting a given set of illegals, who are guided by a given set of your "brethen and looking for a settlement".
I agree, if one is guilty and doing wrong as a employer toward the employee, we should be held accountable for our actions regardless of the status of the person, even as they are being escorted to the borders. What does this action say to us? Stay within the boundaries of our laws and we'll be ok! Or, another settlement action like Tobacco, oil, and many others, the attorneys win again.
PORK
[url]http://www.msnbc.com/news/991277.asp?0si=-[/url]
PORK
"The Legislature finds and declares the following:
(a) All protections, rights, and remedies available under state
law, except any reinstatement remedy prohibited by federal law, are
available to all individuals regardless of immigration status who
have applied for employment, or who are or who have been employed, in
this state."
I'm sure other states probably have similar verbage in their codes. CA typically sets the example on things like this.
Ok, the armour is on! Give it to me....
It's not the immigrants that are just thinking they have the rights, it's our lawmakers that say they DO have the rights.
What's stopping them from coming here? Nothing, and until that changes, nothing else will change. Call your state representatives.
Sorry, CA, Mississippi abides by the Federal Law on most employer/employee issues, thus keeping us from stepping on our own feet. Drivers license for illegals I hope never comes our way and under our new Republician Gov, I don't believe so! We will however, seek his connections to help us resolve our 9 remaining cases for our and their benefit.
PORK
>(edit) I'm sure other states probably have >similar verbage in their codes. CA typically >sets the example on things like this.
The above is a quote from HR Sage. That's such a hoot. California sets the example for the insanity of codified foolishnish. Where do you get the notion that 'other states probably have similar verbage'? None do!
Yes, CA is extreme with it's laws to the point of foolishness (granting illegal immigrants drivers licences is one small expample). What I meant be example (and yes it was a bad choice of words) is that what CA does now, is what other (NOT ALL) states MAY DO in the future. You're going to tell me that other states with a high immigrant population (TX,AZ,NM,NV) aren't going to cater to that immigrant population, whether it's NOW or 5 years in the future or 20 years from now? You think Politicians will care where the voters come from? Illegals can't vote, but their kids can if they are born here.
Pork keeps mentioning 1.6 million illegals, we have more than that just in CA, thanks to our ridiculous laws! I got news for you though, there's no fence around our state, so you think they are all just going to stay here?
Whether other states have similar verbage now is not my point. My point is that some states will have it eventually because NOTHING is being done to stop it and the Politicians only want more immigrants to come in! CA has it now because our legislature if full of bleeding hearts that want to include everybody in everything. But we are not the only state with politicians like ours. And as time goes by more and more politicians will have similar views and ideas. That's what I was trying to say. So just add "probably will have" to my above quote and that will work better. I'll go lick my wounds now, thank you.
Chari
Let us press for the Social Security Administration ON-LINE VERIFICATION SYSTEM for all employers even small businesses. The sooner the better, we have literally become "BLACK-BALLED" in the local communities by the hispanic community because they know we check. The 1.6 million is a figure which was provided to me by the Regional Director, I could have have failed to understand the figure, only pertained to his region around Atlanta.
Everyone should be on your toes for this issue and try not to be personally involved with the issue. Our employees are all hard workers who pay our taxes and never go for a refund. You guys/girls PROFESSIONAL HRs in CA should push your new governor to get on-board with THIS ISSUE
HIS DIRECT LINK TO PRESIDENT BUSH COULD BE VERY USEFUL. We in Mississippi are doing the same thing with our new governor and his direct link to the President. It would be good if the two could be pushing the same agenda.
PORK
Without this match there is no step to the next level. Good luck everyone!
PORK
Several years ago there was a company in NJ that hired illegals who were told they would be paid monthly. On payday, the company would call INS and tell INS that they just discovered that their ees were illegal. INS would go down, arrest the ees (before they could be paid) and deport them. Then INS got smart and got the illegal ees their paychecks, took them to the bank and then deported them. The company cleaned up their act.
I choose not to bash Wal-Mart, when my butt is up the flag pole. They are working a lot of people and I'm sure since "Sam is dead", there are lots of senior managers making grand money, if they are doing wrong they'll get caught and rightfully so. But, who am I to judge.
PORK
This stuff is not news! It has been going on for years and will continue to do so. Our very own culture creates this demand. For example, most of us faint at the thought of paying $20 for a screwdriver (or whatever), made by good-ole union labor in the USA. So, we go to Walmart and find one for $2.50 but then SCREAM because it's made in Taiwan! So now we threaten to boycott whomever the manufacturer is until they start manufacturing screwdrivers with the cute "American Pride-Made in the USA" (by Juan Garcia earning minimum wage on a fake SSN) sticker YET WE, AS AMERICANS ARE NOT WILLING TO PAY THE COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH TAKING A PRODUCT TO MARKET MADE BY AMERICANS earning what they feel is a decent wage. Hmmmmmmm! SHOCKER!
So, I am not taking sides on this debate. I will say this: If you think our gov't doesn't look the other way more often than not, think again. Entire cities across the USA depend on legal and illegal labor to thrive.
The reason Wal-Mart got slammed is because they got greedy. They were using contractors who were probably using either 1099 or cash labor for which no tax is ever collected. At least the illegals on W2's get withheld.
PORK and others who believe that the SSN verification is the cure-all, here's another revelation: In TN, illegals buy legit social security cards and then get matching DL's or other form of ID to match the name. PRESTO! Let's see the SSN verification red-flag that.
The reality of all this is that this is a socio-economic problem that also encompasses other areas. It cannot, and will not, be fixed by simply shutting down borders or implementing silly telephone or on-line verification systems.
This forum is an educational tool for HRs across the democratic "world of work". If things on this forum work for you, then "suck upon it", if it does not then don't bother us with your "doubting Thomas Attitude"!!
JAMES, it looks like we have reached a point of deminishing returns of value and you should seal this thread off. Or at least send me an e-mail which will tell me how to shut off the "gong" button with every posting!
PORK
One last thing to add that I thought Pork would mention. The SSA verification does more than just match the name and SSN. It must also match the gender and DOB.
So if the person gets a legit SS Card and number, yes they can still get other valid documents to match, but they would also need to know the gender and more importantly the DOB of the person that the SSN really belongs to.
In essense it would be a complete theft of identity, which does happen every day. Which is all the more reason why we as a public need to be more aware of who has access to our information.
I started this discussion and I've heard enough. HR in TN get ready for the whooooopping the DAWGs from Mississippi are going to give the "Coon Hounds" tomorrow. May we all have a Blessed day today and a whole and complete week-end.
Want be here next week got 5 "hearings to deal with which is what this HR gets paid to do: Un-employment, (3)false W/C claims, Monday, Tuesday, and Wed. One may get settled prior to the presentation, which is set to be very favorable in our behalf.
Don't post after this thread if you are writing to me, my computer is off and the gong may go off but I want here it. I'll be back late in the week, but not on this thread.
PORK
TN HR: Your last post sounded a bit like the stage of seven Democratic Presidential Wannabees. All of them can lambast the status quo till doomsday, but none of them has anything to offer in the way of real solutions. Just because there are flaws in the system and jobs to be had by illegals is no reason to not police our borders. Nor are those facts good reasons to give up on the system of controlling who works in our country. The system in Mexico works. They don't allow illegal aliens down there. Unemployed Americans in Texas cannot cross the border and work at one of the plants that has left Mississippi for Mexico. As backwards as that place is, it seems to work for them. Primarily because they police their borders. Just because I will certainly get a cold this winter is no reason for me to go barefoot in the snow. There are other reasons. And there are other reasons to patrol our borders and inforce our immigration laws. The SSN match system is just one tool, but the best we have, so-far. Probably the best way to make it work is to do whatever the opposite is of what California does. x:-)
I don't hold out Pork's hope that Miss State will whip TN tomorrow, although I do have on my denim shirt with the bulldog emblem on it. On a related note; they've decided to combine the football teams at Ole Miss, Miss State and Southern Miss next year. They'll use Ole Miss' offense, Southern's Defense, and State's bus.
BLESSED BE THE GONG SHOW!
pork