Insubordination--Not justified for firing?

shepworth · September 2003

Recently, I had an employee who got into a verbal confrontation with The Financial Operations Director here. I was away at a conference, and the incident happened on a Friday afternoon. When I returned on Monday, I asked for documentation from all of those employees who had overheard this arguement. The documentations were all pretty much the same, depending on where the employee sat from the incident. Apparently, the employee was very confrontational, beliggerent and threatening. This employee is on probation for domestic violence with another employee. We have had them working at separate job sites to conform with his no contact order. I know I cannot use this behavior (the outside the office offense), but I thought with a policy that clearly states we will fire for insubordination, that I was justified and safe with this one. I just received a notice from the Department of Labor that the employer is liable for unemployment because neither during or after the confrontation was the employee told his job was in jeopardy. Help..am I missing something? I am still so new at this! Thanks

MS HR · September 2003

termination is warranted as this insubordination will only escalate over a period of time. Unemployment laws vary, but it seems to me that you are better off paying the unemployment (or you can appeal, if you like) and be rid of the character forever.

mwild31 · September 2003

When did you let the employee go? Usually, the UI office wants to see termination for insubordination occur same day. You can appeal the decision by the UI office (after all most are just clerks deciding what they think is best given their experience) to one of the UI's administrative judges. In this case, I would appeal.

Down_the_Middle · September 2003

shepworth:
Part of the problem might be from the definition that you use for "insubordination". Insubordination is the refusal to carry out a lawful order from a superior vs. an indignant, confrontational attitude from an employee. You may have policies that permit you to discharge for biligerance, but, it's not likely to be upheld by a legal challenge. Sounds to me as though this may have been an emotional discharge that may need to be reconsidered. Don't you hate it when mgr's go wild when you're off for only a day????

marc · September 2003

I think that is one of Murphy's laws. The same thing happens with our PC's whent the IT person is out.

shepworth · September 2003

Thank everyone for your input. The sad part was that I was at a conference, still working. Also, I think Murpheys Law always dictates that things like this happen on Friday afternoons.~~

Don D · September 2003

I've never heard of a ruling being based on the finding that the ee was never "was never told his job was in jeopardy." That ruling would not come down in Mississippi. Although I can see losing this one if he was never taken through your discipline policy and the incident was not actually insubordination. Indignant, arrogant buffoonery does not necessarily equate to insubordination and I can understand fully how one might 'lose it' with a Financial Ops Director. I would agree with the advice to appeal. Our state has Claims Examiners, at the State level, not the local level, who make these initial determinations and they have been in the claims arena for many years, typically, and are very knowledgeable of the state's laws. I disagree with the conclusion that you could not 'use' the domestic violence situation. That situation wound up coming into the workplace when you were forced to separate them physically by department. I would roll that into the overall decision to fire him.

gillian2 · September 2003

Unemployment insurance regulations are generally written with the bias to pay benefits - it's the nature of the beast. The information in another post about insubordination being a refusal to follow a direct order is correct - we oftentimes lump all sorts of things under insubordination. The issue of not being told the job is in jeopardy may reflect some precedence set in previous rulings or it may the unique view of the person who made the ruling. You have the option of appealing - you may, or may not, win - it depends on how well you structure your presentation and the perceptions of the individuals who evaluate it.

Balloonman · September 2003

Appeal the decision. You can hope the person listening to the appeal is not as stupid as the one who made the initial decision.
My $0.02 worth.
DJ The Balloonman

Insubordination--Not justified for firing?

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