>>It's a political statement. It's saying America is too federalistic >>and states' rights have to prevail. It's saying America is too liberal >>and conservative values that existed in the Confederacy have to prevail.
Maybe to a few, although I haven't personally met any. To the Confederate flag wavers I've known, it's a political statement that if we don't fight like hell to repress people who are different than us, we may have to share more of our "stuff" with them - like our schools, churches, streets, etc.
It's not a coincidence that it's the "battle flag" that is the center of this debate. I haven't heard any uproar over the Bonnie Blue.
The "states' rights" rationale is frequently cited as a defense, but the biggest states' right the Confederate battle flag symbolizes is the right to decide who will be master and who will be slave. To ignore that or brush it aside is offensive to many in and of itself.
Which... leads me to the HR tie-in.
Often, it's not the decisions we make that characterize us. It's our ability to carefully weigh the issue, and to make sure everyone involved knows that we've taken the effort to understand their point of view.
In the scenario outlined in the post that kicked off this thread, our task is to make sure the flag-displaying employee and the offended employee both understand that our decision is based on careful and considerate application of policy, law, and business necessity. Too often we hold ourselves up as the ultimate "reasonable man", and we lose sight of fact that every issue does have two sides, and while one may be wrong, it has to be acknowledged.
Just because YOU say my side is wrong, does that make it wrong? Who gave you the right to chose? I say I'm right in my belief that the flag does not represent racism TO ME! How can you say that's wrong?
No one is saying that. What is being said is this issue causes people on all sides of the issue to be offended by the opinions of others they perceive to be on the other sides of the issue. As such, the subject of such contention and argument has no business being displayed in the work place.
I tend to write exactly what I mean. In addressing the rationale that the Confederate battle flag represents states' rights instead of racism, I wrote: "Maybe to a few, although I haven't personally met any."
Before you go off in a tizzy, re-read that statement and then tell me what offends you so much about it.
To put forth the argument that the heritage/states rights side of the issue exists only in the minds of "a few" is to discredit not only those on this forum who agree with the southern political view (outside of this forum that's not exactly a small contingent of folks from my experience and research), but also a rather large consortium of historians. We must remember that there ARE two different perspectives on the symbolism of this flag - and whether we agree with the racism viewpoint or the heritage/states rights viewpoint, both are valid. To state otherwise is to say "my opinion is worth more, and you are lying about your own opinion to hide an ulterior motive"
In my experience, the only folks who consistantly lie about their own opinions are those running for office (on both sides of the aisle). Anyone campaigning?
This is really pretty fascinating. I wonder what a sociologist studying this thread would conclude? That even though the Civil War ended 138 years ago, the wounds are still apparently fresh enough to foster such heated debate?
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 02-19-03 AT 10:16AM (CST)[/font][p]The current debate aside, I'm just glad that Don has said he won't post anymore replies. This leaves me free to assert that the proper name for the war is The War of SOUTHERN Aggression, not Northern. As we all know here in Philly, the Rebs fired the first shot, and stole Federal property
Don may not post again, but that does not mean you won't get a challenge!! From this vantage point, it most surely was the war of northern agression. And we all know that our northern neighbors can be very agressive!!! :-)
In all seriousness, I am amazed at the length of this debate. I always knew people in my part of the country and further south had serious feeling on this issue, I am suprised that others seem to have such strong feelings as well.
In my work place this level of debate and disagreement would be disruptive. Can any of you really say that you want to deal with ees that have strong feelings on this type of issue???
I admit that anything that caused this amount of disagreement and bad feelings amongst any goup of employees would be very unwelcome. Based on past practice I also admit that the management team here would ban such an item. It just isn't worth all of this no matter who is right (correct).
Years ago, I was a newspaper editor in the small town of Pleasant Hill, Missouri. We had a lady who wrote historical columns of local interest. One consistent topic was the Civil War, since the area played a major role in the Missouri-Kansas border skirmishes. Pleasant Hill itself was ordered burned to the ground (and was burned) for harboring Confederate "bushwhackers".
Anyway...
Norma wrote one column in which she told the story of a businessman whose shop had been torched by bushwhackers because he was a Union sympathizer. He had to flee, and wasn't able to return until the war ended.
We ended up having to respond to a libel suit. It was tossed immediately, but we still had to go through the motions. The man's decendents were successful business owners in Pleasant Hill, and took great umbrage that their forefather was being labeled a Unioner. The legend that had been passed down in their family told of his great heroism in fighting for the Confederacy, and how in 1864 he had left Pleasant Hill to ride with Lee's army in the east. Several other prominent families rallied to their cause, and threatened to pull advertising if we didn't stop besmirching this man's good name by insisting he was not a Confederate hero.
Norma had tons of documentation, which we made available for public display, and we had no further problem with it. But it taught me a lesson about how people's views on that particular period can provide for quite a lively minefield.
Well Frank you have come a long way babeeeeeeeeeeee. I just hired a nice young man from Pleasant Hill yesterday. I did not think to ask was he more union or rebel....lol DJ The Balloonman
One of my most vivid memories is going into a bank at Keesler AFB, Mississippi (during my first foray into the South). As the teller was assisting me, the radio started playing The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down. The teller started to sniffle and I asked if she was ok. She had tears in her eyes and said she always cried when she heard that song. That's when I first understood how seriously many people take this issue.
You know part of the problem with the businessman's family is that us Missouirians are truely stubborn as a mule and we don't take lightly to ANYONE bad mouthing our family, whether or not what we believe is the truth is really truth or just what sounded good at the time.
I really doubt that it's a Missouri thing or a Southern thing. I'd say it's pretty much a family thing. And if somthing is amiss, I can talk about it - that's my right - but, by God, everyone else had better not go where angels fear to tread.
Wow! My internet has been down and I just got back on and look what you all are upt to! I can't leave you alone for a second! :0) I have to say, if a binch of HR Professionals got this hot and bothered over a flag, then what kind of a ruckus would it make in the workplace? And in case anyone is still reading this by now, I am a Southerner (Texas), proud of my heritage and yet mindful of the mistakes made by my ancestors. And to me, that is what you find in any culture. People can be proud of where they came from, but still recognize the mistakes made so they can address them for the future. The confederate flag will always mean something different to every person because of how they learn from our country's history. But I would like to think we are all big enough to respect each other's views and work together to make sure the future is not a repeat of mistakes in the past, but an amplification of our strengths.
Comments
>>and states' rights have to prevail. It's saying America is too liberal
>>and conservative values that existed in the Confederacy have to prevail.
Maybe to a few, although I haven't personally met any. To the Confederate flag wavers I've known, it's a political statement that if we don't fight like hell to repress people who are different than us, we may have to share more of our "stuff" with them - like our schools, churches, streets, etc.
It's not a coincidence that it's the "battle flag" that is the center of this debate. I haven't heard any uproar over the Bonnie Blue.
The "states' rights" rationale is frequently cited as a defense, but the biggest states' right the Confederate battle flag symbolizes is the right to decide who will be master and who will be slave. To ignore that or brush it aside is offensive to many in and of itself.
Which... leads me to the HR tie-in.
Often, it's not the decisions we make that characterize us. It's our ability to carefully weigh the issue, and to make sure everyone involved knows that we've taken the effort to understand their point of view.
In the scenario outlined in the post that kicked off this thread, our task is to make sure the flag-displaying employee and the offended employee both understand that our decision is based on careful and considerate application of policy, law, and business necessity. Too often we hold ourselves up as the ultimate "reasonable man", and we lose sight of fact that every issue does have two sides, and while one may be wrong, it has to be acknowledged.
Before you go off in a tizzy, re-read that statement and then tell me what offends you so much about it.
In my experience, the only folks who consistantly lie about their own opinions are those running for office (on both sides of the aisle). Anyone campaigning?
ladyzuesse
From this vantage point, it most surely was the war of northern agression. And we all know that our northern neighbors can be very agressive!!! :-)
In all seriousness, I am amazed at the length of this debate. I always knew people in my part of the country and further south had serious feeling on this issue, I am suprised that others seem to have such strong feelings as well.
In my work place this level of debate and disagreement would be disruptive. Can any of you really say that you want to deal with ees that have strong feelings on this type of issue???
Years ago, I was a newspaper editor in the small town of Pleasant Hill, Missouri. We had a lady who wrote historical columns of local interest. One consistent topic was the Civil War, since the area played a major role in the Missouri-Kansas border skirmishes. Pleasant Hill itself was ordered burned to the ground (and was burned) for harboring Confederate "bushwhackers".
Anyway...
Norma wrote one column in which she told the story of a businessman whose shop had been torched by bushwhackers because he was a Union sympathizer. He had to flee, and wasn't able to return until the war ended.
We ended up having to respond to a libel suit. It was tossed immediately, but we still had to go through the motions. The man's decendents were successful business owners in Pleasant Hill, and took great umbrage that their forefather was being labeled a Unioner. The legend that had been passed down in their family told of his great heroism in fighting for the Confederacy, and how in 1864 he had left Pleasant Hill to ride with Lee's army in the east. Several other prominent families rallied to their cause, and threatened to pull advertising if we didn't stop besmirching this man's good name by insisting he was not a Confederate hero.
Norma had tons of documentation, which we made available for public display, and we had no further problem with it. But it taught me a lesson about how people's views on that particular period can provide for quite a lively minefield.
DJ The Balloonman
I probably wrote his birth announcement.
And in case anyone is still reading this by now, I am a Southerner (Texas),
proud of my heritage and yet mindful of the mistakes made by my ancestors. And to me, that is what you find in any culture. People can be proud of where they came from, but still recognize the mistakes made so they can address them for the future. The confederate flag will always mean something different to every person because of how they learn from our country's history. But I would like to think we are all big enough to respect each other's views and work together to make sure the future is not a repeat of mistakes in the past, but an amplification of our strengths.