Progressive discipline question

We try to use a progressive discipline procedure. A 'verbal', a '1st written', a '2nd written'and a 'final warning'. If a supervisor issues a 'verbal' and tells the employee the next action will be 'termination', is this allowed? I know you can 'skip' steps, but going from a 'verbal' to 'termination' worries me. The supervisor has had some past behavior and production problems with this employee, notes are in the employee's file, but they weren't 'formal' discipline forms. Please advise.

Comments

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  • [font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 07-08-02 AT 04:18PM (CST)[/font][p]It sounds like your manager has a personal agenda. If not, he/she is foolish indeed to throw out a threat like that before checking with you. At best, if the Manager can't back up the threat he/she will lose credability, and at worst may put your company at risk for any number of charges the EE would care to make. In general, you can jump to termination, but only for something truly egregious. I don't think that the "notes" you mentioned build much of a case unless they are standard procedure. I hope this helps. Take care.
  • Much of the issue depends on what the employee has done. Can you give us more info? Its hard to give you a good answer anyways.

    [email]paulknoch@hotmail.com[/email]
  • Sorry, guys.....seems I never give enough details. The employee has been here 2 1/2 years. He has had trouble getting along with coworkers in the past, and has also had production problems. He was 'counseled verbally' for his slow production and production errors in this circumstance. The supervisor really does not want to terminate him....he is only trying to motivate the employee to do the work he is truly capable of doing. He talked 'termination' because he has gone over these problems with him before (but hadn't written a formal reprimand). The employee admits he could do better. The employee would like a 'lead' position in his dept., but his social and work skills don't support placing him in a 'lead' position.
    There is no union here. The employees are not provided with handbooks and policies either. Being in Human Resources here is a hard row to hoe. Supervisors and managers act and then tell what they've done. I don't claim to have all the answers, but 'jumping to termination' after a 'verbal warning' scares me. This is Missouri, an 'at-will' state. However, I know 'at-will' does not protect you in a lot of areas. We really do strive to be fair. But it seems that many managers, working without guidelines, make their own policies. Our owner will not issue handbooks or written guidelines. Everyone is on a different page.
    The employee is scheduled to have another evaluation on July 24th.

  • When you have a progressive discipline policy, it is always wise to put a provision in it to the extent that any step may be skipped or repeated based upon the facts at that time, ya da ya da ya da. Of course, if nothing is given out to employees or published for their knowledge abut what the company's discipline policy is, then everything falls on the specific notice given for each incident.

    What does your progressive discipline policy, plan or practice call for or allow?

    If the employee is disciplined and told that on next occasion discharge will result, the employee has been technically put on notice that discharge will take place if there is repetition. However, of course, like many issues in human relations, there are always extenuating or aggravating circumstances. So, if 15 years pass between incidents, I don't think you would want to say,"well, you're fired because 15 years ago we warned you that if you did this again, you'd be fired, so you are!" When is "next time, you're fired" no longer really enforceable? That's the $64,000 question for you old timers (and really old timers, the $64 question).

    I don't think it is wise for the supervisor to try to motivate the employee in that exact manner, by intentionally misrepresenting what could happen next time. If the supervisor wants to raise the spectre of discharge but doesn't expect it to occur, then he or she should say, "if you repeat this type of conduct again, you will be subject to more severe disciplinary action which could include written first or second warning or discharge." It's better than limiting the next discipline as discharge when the supervisor most likely won't take it.

  • These issues are always difficult in progressive discipline situations. I agree with the fact that you should have in your progressive discipline policy that some steps may be skipped depending upon the situation. But....keep in mind you cannot do this arbitrarily. You would have to have a good reason for skipping from verbal to termination and this case does not seem to warrant that. Progressive discipline is only effective and legally compliant if you use it fairly and consistently. It also erodes your employment at will to some extent. From legal guidance I have gotten in the past (which could be good or bad) - if you have a progressive discipline policy in place, you must follow this policy and cannot fire for "any reason or no reason" which is the rationale behind employment at will.

    If you have a good group of supervisors who are well trained in the mechanics of progressive discipline and how to administer it, it can work pretty well. But. it can also be disasterous if not followed properly. In my experience in this area, supervisors (1) do not like to administer discipline and (2) many tend to play favorites with people - let the ones they like slide and come down hard on the ones they would rather "go away". You can also get yourself in the position where you may have to terminate someone who is primarily a good employee, but because of circumstances of the progressive discipline policy, you may have to terminate.

    As you can probably tell, I am not a great fan of progressive discipline!
  • Thanks to all for your help. I wish I had your knowledge! Hope we meet again at my NEXT problem!
  • When is "next time, you're fired" no longer really enforceable?
    >

    Our written policy states that "The Company will not utilize a previous notice of counseling or warning if the employee does not receive any additional notices of warning during the subsequent 12-month period." We had to word it that way on purpose, so it would sail through during contract negotiations. The union thought it meant after the form was a year old, it was out the window. But, read carefully. It actually says they can all be used, forever, as long as there is subsequent documentation in the file at least once each 364 days. Its wise to have a written progressive discipline policy and procedure and follow it to the letter to keep the precedent-setting wolf at bay and to keep down challenges. Tell your boss (if you can) that it's not at all wise to NOT have ee handbooks. That is a clear positive check mark in the ee's column in a hearing or other action if he can say, "Well, no sir, they never gave us a handbook and I didn't really understand that was the policy." Old school company owners, and even some new-school ones, tend to think that if "we don't have it in writing, we can pretty much do what we want to." Invite him to attend a few of your Unemployment hearings.

  • Very clever. I had to read the phrase several times before I saw the intent. As I said before, you have a way with words.
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